Alonso to miss Bahrain GP

[chillibowl]

the point about Todt's comment was that the FIA doctors had previously cleared Alonso and then on a subsequent examination several days later had ruled him unfit...the point is that the doctors should be conducting more examinations on a more frequent basis not less because thats how fast these things can change.

working with the driver's personal and team doctors in order to come up with the clearest picture of a driver's health as this is an important issue and imo, based on Alonso's situation, the FIA has a ways to go in this area.

and i guess F1 has a high standard in this as Dr. Sid Watkins, based on what i read, had always placed a premium on protecting a drivers health but in a way that the drivers could understand and relate to...this created a level of trust that im not sure exists at the moment between the FIA doctors and its drivers...hence Ron Dennis' assertions.

as always though agree to disagree.

[Mike Harte]

chillibowl, I have to take issue with you because I cannot for one minute believe what you are saying is true. Firstly, I don't believe that Todt was in Australia, and I don't believe for one minute that the FIA medical team had cleared him to race in Bahrain before he left Melbourne. If that was the case, why did they insist that he underwent a further scan on the day prior to free practice; doesn't make sense, and if it doesn't make sense, then it can't be true.

We don't know what the McLaren medical team, whoever or whatever they are, actually advised, but what we do know is that Alonso's personal physician is his sister who also travelled to Bahrain with him. I am not aware that she made any statements after the FIA team had stopped him from participating.

I can only repeat that immediately after the FIA's medical team had declared him unfit to resume active duties, Alonso made a public statement directly to the media that he fully understood the reasoning behind the doctor's decision; doesn't mean, of course, that he was happy with it but he understood it. I don't believe for one second that there was any misunderstanding between Alonso and the medics.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

the point about Todt's comment was that the FIA doctors had previously cleared Alonso and then on a subsequent examination several days later had ruled him unfit...the point is that the doctors should be conducting more examinations on a more frequent basis not less because thats how fast these things can change.

working with the driver's personal and team doctors in order to come up with the clearest picture of a driver's health as this is an important issue and imo, based on Alonso's situation, the FIA has a ways to go in this area.

and i guess F1 has a high standard in this as Dr. Sid Watkins, based on what i read, had always placed a premium on protecting a drivers health but in a way that the drivers could understand and relate to...this created a level of trust that im not sure exists at the moment between the FIA doctors and its drivers...hence Ron Dennis' assertions.

as always though agree to disagree.

The FIA doctors are regulatory though, they are there to see if a driver is fit to race and to oversee initial trackside and medical centre treatment in the event of an accident - usually in partnership with local doctors and specialists. The driver is not their patient in the general sense of the word, but they are the FIA doctors responsibility which is why they will quite rightly make a cautious judgement, particularly in view of the forces on the drivers body and certainly the ribcage.

From drivers I have known that have had sizeable but 'walk away' impacts, generally they feel worse 24 to 48 hours after the accident than they did at the time as other aches and pains present themselves as after effects from the crash, pressure points from the belts, etc.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I feel that if the FIA doctors do not pass a driver as being fit to race that should be the end of it ..

Yep and even more so for the younger drivers who may feel pressured to get back in the car or not want to see another driver in their seat.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

From drivers I have known that have had sizeable but 'walk away' impacts, generally they feel worse 24 to 48 hours after the accident than they did at the time as other aches and pains present themselves as after effects from the crash, pressure points from the belts, etc.

agreed...which is why i feel like there should be more examinations not less

this is very common in all sports where a players fitness is assessed several times with the last time happening at last possible moment (prior to the match) to ensure they have had the maximum possible amount of time to heal.

is this an usual's or incorrect position to have?

[JeremySmith]

All I know is that players in our San Antonio Spurs are not allowed to play if they have suffered a recents injury ..

[Mike Harte]

chillibowl, I think that you are looking at this matter through the wrong end of the telescope. To me, this indicates that the FIA's doctors, having carefully examined the scan results, have come to an unequivocal decision that Alonso would not be fit enough to take up active duties at any time over the weekend. Therefore, there would be no point in conducting further scans in Bahrain, but they will require him to be scanned again in Shanghai.

Looking at an injury through a machine doesn't make it better, or make it suddenly disappear.

[chillibowl]

well the Spurs have a very unique system of resting players on a rotation basis employed throughout the regular season...but regardless those are decisions made by the team's own doctors and not the league...which was one of the points Dennis was actually making, that the teams are in a better position to determines a drivers fitness to race.

to be fair though, i do think F1 is different in that there are only 30odd drivers to monitor so the FIA can effectively monitor that number where as the NBA has over 500 active players on 30 teams so logistically they must defer to the team doctors.

[Mike Harte]

chillibowl, you may be overlooking the fact that anyone from McLaren, whether it be Dennis or their medicos, has/have a vested interest in keeping Alonso in the driving seat. I would also be surprised to know that McLaren had any doctor, let alone an orthopaedic or pulmonary specialist with them in Bahrain.

The FIA's medical team which I am sure includes specialists, on the other hand, have absolutely no axe to grind, and therefore have nothing to gain from not allowing Alonso to participate. It surely follows, therefore, that they were acting in his best interests, not the FIA's nor McLaren's. I also wonder if his unexplained accident last year may also have some bearing on the matter.

[chillibowl]

to my knowledge they didnt have any doctors present...they just wanted another scan taken on Saturday (by the FIA) to see if that corroborated what Alonso's doctors' earlier scans had shown...the FIA refused this request.

hence the source of frustration by Ron and why he was questioning the protocol.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

to my knowledge they didnt have any doctors present...they just wanted another scan taken on Saturday (by the FIA) to see if that corroborated what Alonso's doctors' earlier scans had shown...the FIA refused this request.

hence the source of frustration by Ron and why he was questioning the protocol.

But, to the best of my knowledge, the FIA scanned him at the circuit on Wednesday/Thursday, and then declared him unfit for duty. And from what has been reported, the only thing that Alonso's own medical team had reported was that the trapped air between his lungs and ribcage had dissipated.

Dennis gets frustrated by stupid things, that he usually has no control over. The issue here is whether the teams and the drivers trust the FIA's medical team to do all they can in the interests of the drivers and members of the teams. If they do not trust them to act in such a manner, then the teams should withdraw their cars until such a time as they are satisfied that their wellbeing is being looked after.

In the meantime, Ron Dennis should stop trying to throw his weight around, and he must accept the FIA's medical decisions as being the final word.

[chillibowl]

yeah i dont know...all that i have heard mention of are a couple of scans Alonso's doctors took...what they were of i have no idea nor do i know what date they were taken...for all we know they could have been scans from last year.

my only issue here is that a driver (or his team principle) requested an additional test to be taken a few days later and the FIA doctors should have just given it to him...if for no other reason then to humour Alonso.

i understand that the doctors may have felt it was medically unnecessary but thats small comfort to the patient requesting the test.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/...o-alonso-again

"It's frustrating because we are a data driven team," Dennis told Sky Sports. "The scans that were looked at were Monday scans and we just wanted the opportunity to have Fernando scanned again this morning and if he was clear then fine, if he wasn't clear not fine but just to say well we are not prepared to go through a logical process was a bit frustrating."

so the end of the telescope i am looking through is the one where i can empathize with someone being denied an additional test. ive been there and i understand that frustration.

[Mike Harte]

chillibowl, there comes a time that medics have to draw a line, and say we've seen enough, that's it. I think that that time had come in relation to Alonso. The day that Dennis qualifies as a top specialist doctor, then I might listen to him trying to interpret a CT scan that was conducted by Alonso's physicians.

In the meantime, most sensible people will follow the advice given by the FIA's experienced medical team who conducted another scan later in the week, and which they are unlikely to have discussed directly with Dennis as he is not their "patient".

[midgetman]

The whole of motor sport revolves around independent medical examinations. If the MSA don't like your medical report or declaration you don't race. Period.

You cannot undermine the whole principle of the motor sport medical just because you think you have clout to throw around. If independent doctors say no, us mere club racers can't race and it is hugely more important that F1 drivers with all the forces they have to withstand can't race also.

We have rules. They have been there for years. They must not be over-ridden or there is no point in having rules. They are designed to prevent exactly the sort of pressure from unscrupulous team bosses like Mr Dennis. I think he was despicable. The edict said "no", that's the rules, respect them.

[chillibowl]

is that a rule?

if a driver is excluded on thursday for medical reasons they will not be allowed a follow up examination on saturday to reassess the situation?

did not know that. guess that clears everything up then.

also lets not make it out like RD is intentionally trying to get Alonso hurt or killed...unless of course this has been his spygate revenge plan all along!

[midgetman]

Love your last paragraph!

Yes we had a driver go up to the paramedic at a lowly kart race last year. Asked if they had any ibuprofen gel because of an aching arm, paramedic said "you're not allowed to race", report sent to CoC, no appeal, driver sent home.

That's the way motor sport works whether team bosses like it or not. If the medic says "I don't believe you will be fit.enough on Saturday", that is that! Probably a.good thing all in all, it is for the good of the driver, fellow drivers, marshals and spectators.

[Adam43]

The official medical team should have the final say. The teams can ask for an update if they feel like it or call for a change of process. This can be refused, but they can ask.

I hope he's back in the car for the next race.

[Mike Harte]

chillibowl, my friend, I think that a tactical withdrawal might be your best option here, and live to fight another day. There's sure to be other battles to be won around the corner.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

chillibowl, my friend, I think that a tactical withdrawal might be your best option here, and live to fight another day. There's sure to be other battles to be won around the corner.

yeah probably lol...i didnt realize that you guys would be take such issue with the suggestion that drivers get looked at more than just once before the GP weekend starts.

this is a very lucrative sport and as such they can afford to have the experts and equipment necessary on hand to give their drivers every opportunity they can to prove their health or fitness. use them!

as a rule, heck as a philosophy, more examinations for injured drivers should always be encouraged and certainly never dismissed out of hand imo!

[GTRMagic]

In the old days, Prof Watkins would likely have done the examination himself, and declare to the world if all was well or not. And we would have accepted the judgement either way....

Times change...

[F1Pete]

I am in agreement with what Johnny Herbert said...

[JeremySmith]

Well JH is entitled to his opinion, however I doubt if Ron Dennis would agree ..
McLaren take great stock in Fernandos ability and believe that he can win races and championships for them ..
I saw an interview with Ron Dennis where he said that Alonso is the fastest driver currently driving a F1 car ...

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by F1Pete

I am in agreement with what Johnny Herbert said...

Based on what exactly?!

Herbert's comments on this ocasssion were unfortunately illinformed and quite inflammatory.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Based on what exactly?!

Herbert's comments on this ocasssion were unfortunately illinformed and quite inflammatory.

It sounded like something Mr Villeneuve might have said....

[F1Pete]

Did anyone see the vid where FA approaches JH during commentary??