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Old 30 Oct 2020, 07:43 (Ref:4013850)   #556
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Originally Posted by bella View Post
i disagree with that one, particularly for the 24. it gives the team time to make sure everything is done properly, fuelling up is done safely (don't they BoP the fuel flow now?), and drivers are properly in and out of the car.
For Am class and the like, sure. But it's hard to argue that Pro teams in GTWC need this, but it isn't need in ACO Series, F1, etc. Fuel flow (as in, filling the tank, not the cars fuel flow) is not BoP'd anymore. Pit stops are regulated by the times, not the skill of the crew pulling it off.

I understand the levelling of playing field for the Pro-Am, Silver and Am classes. But not the Pro. Otherwise you can use the "gives them time to do X correctly" argument to argue the return of minimum lap times too. Don't want anyone risking anything going too fast.

Last edited by Akrapovic; 30 Oct 2020 at 07:48.
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Old 30 Oct 2020, 07:44 (Ref:4013851)   #557
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Originally Posted by urdragon View Post
Does WEC have a free online commented streaming? because we allways endup hearing to radio lemans.

Stop complaining to free things and start mending those that not work.

From the point of the view of a Spaniard, The part of the triple crown of Alonso of winning LeMans/wec was easier than winning a F2 championship with only two toyotas with posbilities up to a 50% of chances, only by finishing the race and not counting team orders.
Ah the old "It's free therefore has no issues" argument.

Glad to this argument back. It's like an old friend you haven't seen in a while. Rolled out when you love a subject and refused to acknowledge it may not be perfect, so you have to defend it.
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Old 30 Oct 2020, 08:36 (Ref:4013856)   #558
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
For Am class and the like, sure. But it's hard to argue that Pro teams in GTWC need this, but it isn't need in ACO Series, F1, etc. Fuel flow (as in, filling the tank, not the cars fuel flow) is not BoP'd anymore. Pit stops are regulated by the times, not the skill of the crew pulling it off.

I understand the levelling of playing field for the Pro-Am, Silver and Am classes. But not the Pro. Otherwise you can use the "gives them time to do X correctly" argument to argue the return of minimum lap times too. Don't want anyone risking anything going too fast.
but it's not necessarily about skill. pro and am doesn't refer to the skill of the people doing the pitstop and working on the cars.

gt team folk are the hardest worked i've come across. it's two guys running around doing the tyres (have you ever lifted a gt3 rim with a wet on it?), not twenty like in f1. that's where the time is gained on a pitstop. you want an entire race to depend on two already overworked people? that's not what we're here for.

the wec and elms organisers can do what they want. but from the point of view of taking the pressure off a couple of extremely knackered number ones (it's usually the number ones doing the running), i'm all for a minimum time. teams can use their time how they want, they can go as quickly as they want and wait or go slower.

thanks for correcting me about fuel flow. couldn't remember if it was but isn't now or the other way around.
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Old 30 Oct 2020, 08:55 (Ref:4013858)   #559
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Originally Posted by bella View Post
but it's not necessarily about skill. pro and am doesn't refer to the skill of the people doing the pitstop and working on the cars.

gt team folk are the hardest worked i've come across. it's two guys running around doing the tyres (have you ever lifted a gt3 rim with a wet on it?), not twenty like in f1. that's where the time is gained on a pitstop. you want an entire race to depend on two already overworked people? that's not what we're here for.

the wec and elms organisers can do what they want. but from the point of view of taking the pressure off a couple of extremely knackered number ones (it's usually the number ones doing the running), i'm all for a minimum time. teams can use their time how they want, they can go as quickly as they want and wait or go slower.

thanks for correcting me about fuel flow. couldn't remember if it was but isn't now or the other way around.
I would never criticise the teams or imply that they aren't hard working or whatever - I apologise if that's how it came across. That was absolutely not my intention.

However, I don't really understand the stance of making it easier on overworked people. Isn't that the whole thing of a 24 hour race? Isn't one of the biggest motor races in the world meant to be high pressure? Isn't it meant to be about who (team wise, not just driver wise) is the best? Are we going to just legislate out any possible skill differences in the teams? Because an identical argument can be used for the minimum lap time inclusion.

But in saying all this, I don't think SRO are using these rules for the reason you say. They're using them so they don't have to BoP things anymore. That's the reason for it - nothing to do with team fatigue.

By having a minimum pit stop time you solve 2 massive BoP issues - you no longer need a fuel flow BoP (which would vary per car anyway), and once you take into account the maximum stint length of 65 minutes, you no longer need to take into account fuel tank size either. Because obviously when you adjust the power of the cars in the BoP, that has an effect on fuel rate, which means you need to adjust tank size, which means you need to adjust pit stop fuel flow. But if you set a minimum stint length and a maximum pit stop time, you can adjust the cars weight and power and not have to worry about pesky things like fuel tank sizes and pit stop speeds.

To be completely blunt - it's done to make their life easier with BoP. And that's further evidenced by the fact they do the minimum stop lengths in the standard 3 hour races where fatigue is not a factor and it's down to skill only. That is legislated out, to give them an easier job BoPing the cars.
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Old 30 Oct 2020, 09:37 (Ref:4013863)   #560
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i'm just introducing the human element that's all. people get so lost in the technicalities and minutiae in gt racing that it feels like time to point out some home truths about the increasing load on individuals. particularly with the way social media goes in hard on people when they make mistakes.

there's primary motivations but not sole ones. i agree that messing with minimum and maximum stint lengths doesn't work and boy is the vsc-sc thing ridiculous but the concept of a minimum pit time benefits quite a lot of people. just because i'm saying "actually that one's sound" doesn't mean i'm not fully against the rest of the manipulative nonsense that the organisers inflict on the races.
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Old 31 Oct 2020, 11:12 (Ref:4014034)   #561
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
To be completely blunt - it's done to make their life easier with BoP. And that's further evidenced by the fact they do the minimum stop lengths in the standard 3 hour races where fatigue is not a factor and it's down to skill only. That is legislated out, to give them an easier job BoPing the cars.
This is true and Stephane Ratel said as much in an interview with DSC a year or two ago. His argument was that if you allow something to be a possible competitive advantage, however small, then teams (especially the wealthier pro teams) will spend money on it. Costs spiral, the races become less competitive and the amateurs/semi-pro teams are priced out and leave. Hence, minimum pit stop times much longer than refueling time so no-one spends a million Euros on a rig that pumps fuel 2% faster.

I accept this. I am not sure I entirely agree but it's a coherent argument and consistent with the overall approach which has made SRO such a success.

Graham Goodwin didn't ask about the FCY->SC abomination but the answer Ratel would likely have given can be inferred from his repeated claim to be above all "an entertainer". Thus, if faced with the observation I have repeatedly made, that the Spa 24 is a great spectacle but a terrible race, he'd most likely think "great!".

Sadly then, we are likely to have to endure for some time the embarrassment of hearing respected commentators debase themselves by pretending that it's all for safety rather than to artificially bunch the field.
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Old 31 Oct 2020, 11:34 (Ref:4014040)   #562
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Originally Posted by Anyopenroad View Post
This is true and Stephane Ratel said as much in an interview with DSC a year or two ago. His argument was that if you allow something to be a possible competitive advantage, however small, then teams (especially the wealthier pro teams) will spend money on it. Costs spiral, the races become less competitive and the amateurs/semi-pro teams are priced out and leave. Hence, minimum pit stop times much longer than refueling time so no-one spends a million Euros on a rig that pumps fuel 2% faster.

I accept this. I am not sure I entirely agree but it's a coherent argument and consistent with the overall approach which has made SRO such a success.

Graham Goodwin didn't ask about the FCY->SC abomination but the answer Ratel would likely have given can be inferred from his repeated claim to be above all "an entertainer". Thus, if faced with the observation I have repeatedly made, that the Spa 24 is a great spectacle but a terrible race, he'd most likely think "great!".

Sadly then, we are likely to have to endure for some time the embarrassment of hearing respected commentators debase themselves by pretending that it's all for safety rather than to artificially bunch the field.
Great post this, thanks for that additional info!

I do understand the idea of minimum pit time, especially for the semi-pro and am teams. But ACO and IMSA manage to run pit stops without things getting silly, and SRO is far from incompetent so they can do it if they want. I do think the Pro class minimum pit stop times should be removed. Of course the other issue is maximum stint lengths, but that's done so they don't need to balance fuel tank sizes. It'a a lazy BoP.

I think for FCY->SC we have to accept the official stance is it allows the cars to warm up the tyres as Alain Adam is now saying it on his brief snippets on the radio, so it's not just something commentators are saying anymore. That was straight from race controls mouth. And I think we can all agree that it is nonsense for many reasons - other series not having it, front runners still having cold tyres, etc etc.

SRO series so close to being absolutely perfect. I love everything else...please just stop the madness.
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Old 31 Oct 2020, 13:20 (Ref:4014058)   #563
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I think for FCY->SC we have to accept the official stance is it allows the cars to warm up the tyres as Alain Adam is now saying it on his brief snippets on the radio, so it's not just something commentators are saying anymore. That was straight from race controls mouth.
Oh for sure, it was always the commentators parroting the official line. That's why it's embarrassing. Bruce Jones knows perfectly well that it's nonsense but he wants to keep his job. I feel bad for him.
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Old 10 Nov 2020, 21:18 (Ref:4015904)   #564
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So 40 car entry for this weekend.

I didn't imitially realise there were 2 other big GT events going on elsewhere.

This must have put a bit of a strain on driver rosters.

It's still strong field although there are less Porsches and Astons than previous rounds.

Ironic also that 7 McLarens ran Silverstone last weekend but none will be at Ricard.
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 12:33 (Ref:4017245)   #565
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Wow I was not expecting a win from the Ferrari. AF Corse just bossed the strategy game with the last pit stop and then Pier Guidi did a magnificent job for the team. A win and the title in Endurance Cup, just fantastic!

They were running well also in the SPA 24h, just a shame they were uncompetitive with the wet track.

I just would love to see more endurance races rather than sprint in GT World Challenge
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Old 16 Nov 2020, 13:55 (Ref:4017259)   #566
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Wow I was not expecting a win from the Ferrari. AF Corse just bossed the strategy game with the last pit stop and then Pier Guidi did a magnificent job for the team. A win and the title in Endurance Cup, just fantastic!

They were running well also in the SPA 24h, just a shame they were uncompetitive with the wet track.

I just would love to see more endurance races rather than sprint in GT World Challenge
I've not held back on how much I don't like Paul Ricard in the past but it worked this time. As long as you have a clean race with plenty of daylight and good weather even a Ricard it was cool. The SC/FCY did not rear its ugly head as much. The SRO Europe 2020 season apart from Spa was enjoyable and very re-watchable on replays.

The 24 hours of Spa is the key to really take this series to the next level. Getting back to July will help. Maybe in 2021 we can get lucky and have a full dry race for once. But the safety car procedures and the TV production is what really hurts that race in particular. So it is fixable.
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Old 19 Nov 2020, 09:08 (Ref:4017827)   #567
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Ricard is a fantastic track, F1 cars may not suit it, but it's great racing when anything else goes there!

I was astonished the Ferrari got ahead of that Porsche, especially after the gap Campbell established in that superb middle stint.

2 other stonking drives, Lind amd Costa in their Huracans?
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