[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by The Snout

Some real equity for example has been built up in the name LMP1 over the last decade. Yet all that name recognition is going to be discontinued and replaced with Hypercar(or whatever it ultimately gets assigned). From a branding point of view that's seems a poor choice to me.

LMP1 has had Audi, Porsche, Peugeot Toyota etc invested a lot of money in winning under that category name, I think it's a waste to retire it. In building a viable World Championship I"d think they need all the continuity and brand recognition they can get.

I think that, outside fo the insular and fairly small sports car racing world, LMP1 has no cachet ... no name recognition. And I think hat is the problem this latest move hopes to address.

I Think FIA/WEC hope that the cars on the grid will be recognizable as cars, not as rocket ships or whatever, so that people who don't follow racing can see that they are cool-looking exotic cars.

Frankly, objectively, a grid of P1s and P2s probably looks alien to most people and after a short time, looks pretty bland. Because of the conjunction of the class rules and the rules of physics, most of the cars seem pretty generic---and with the fin and the fender holes and all that .... Look at an old Ferrari P4 and look at any LMP1 and tell me which is better-looking.

Sadly, most of us are addicted, and FIA/WEC counts on that. Whatever they put on the grid, whatever ridiculous rules, we moan and complain and watch the races. Now, I think, FIA/WEC is trying to actually expand the base of people who will understand the advertisements .... is trying to reach the non-fans, and using that as an incentive to get more manufacturers on board.

Right now ... we have The Toyota Show. Whatever manufacturers found some value in LMP1 in the past, they are in the past. Obviously changes are needed.

Hopefully the new standard works.

[The Snout]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I think that, outside fo the insular and fairly small sports car racing world, LMP1 has no cachet ... no name recognition. And I think hat is the problem this latest move hopes to address.

I Think FIA/WEC hope that the cars on the grid will be recognizable as cars, not as rocket ships or whatever, so that people who don't follow racing can see that they are cool-looking exotic cars.

Frankly, objectively, a grid of P1s and P2s probably looks alien to most people and after a short time, looks pretty bland. Because of the conjunction of the class rules and the rules of physics, most of the cars seem pretty generic---and with the fin and the fender holes and all that .... Look at an old Ferrari P4 and look at any LMP1 and tell me which is better-looking.

Sadly, most of us are addicted, and FIA/WEC counts on that. Whatever they put on the grid, whatever ridiculous rules, we moan and complain and watch the races. Now, I think, FIA/WEC is trying to actually expand the base of people who will understand the advertisements .... is trying to reach the non-fans, and using that as an incentive to get more manufacturers on board.

Right now ... we have The Toyota Show. Whatever manufacturers found some value in LMP1 in the past, they are in the past. Obviously changes are needed.

Hopefully the new standard works.

I am very skeptical they understand and can address it. If we come back in 20 years time and the championship is called WEC and the top category is called 'Hypercars' then they have at least stayed the course and that will contribute to any main stream recognition.

But history has shown there is a better chance in 20 years it will be called something like Le Mans Global Series and the top category will be e-Prototypes One.

In 2040 Formula One will likely still be called Formula one, same as it was in 1975. If they abandon LMP1 because it really doesn't matter then sure, but they need to avoid the folly of switching the series name and category names again and again going forward. Makes it feel cheap and temporary, not like you are competing in something of historic value.

Of course there more to it to make a ongoing world championship inviting to sponsors, makers and non-rusted on fans, but it starts with continuity of at least knowing the name of what you're selling.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by The Snout

Of course there more to it to make a ongoing world championship inviting to sponsors, makers and non-rusted on fans, but it starts with continuity of at least knowing the name of what you're selling.

Well ... it has been "Le Mans 24" since I think, 1923 ......

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Look at an old Ferrari P4 and look at any LMP1 and tell me which is better-looking.

Maybe you could have picked a comparison where every generation of sports car wouldn't lose.

[The Snout]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Well ... it has been "Le Mans 24" since I think, 1923 ......

Le Mans isn't an ongoing world championship though. People know Le Mans, I"m speaking of some basics to address the championship.

[crooky]

Haven’t been keeping up with the news in the last few months and have come back to find out that soon the top category will use BOP.. After the monotony of the GT race at Le Mans last year with the fixed strategy options and cars that have long since has their competitiveness chosen by the ACOs latest dice it’s heartbreaking to hear that the top category will suffer the same fate.

Sure the racing will be closer but it’s not the same when you’re racing cars that are performance wise closer to spec than open rules. The reason I love Le Mans and the cars that race is because of the incredible variety and the same reason I struggle to find interest in so many other racing categories which are essentially spec these days.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by crooky

Haven’t been keeping up with the news in the last few months and have come back to find out that soon the top category will use BOP.. After the monotony of the GT race at Le Mans last year with the fixed strategy options and cars that have long since has their competitiveness chosen by the ACOs latest dice it’s heartbreaking to hear that the top category will suffer the same fate.

Sure the racing will be closer but it’s not the same when you’re racing cars that are performance wise closer to spec than open rules. The reason I love Le Mans and the cars that race is because of the incredible variety and the same reason I struggle to find interest in so many other racing categories which are essentially spec these days.

What bop will there be besides the success ballast? I don't know what they'll do to make sure the cars are at 690, 700hp but I assume it'll be something close to what they do now with the fuel flow? I don't like the policing of downforce and such, but right now the rules aren't finalized. I really hope they dial some of it back (like the high weight and l/d ratio).

[Deleted]

What bop won't there be might be the better question...

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

What bop won't there be might be the better question...

Reading what's been said so far it looks like bop isn't a big thing. Success ballast is much better than tinkering with wing angles, restrictor sizes etc.

[Deleted]

Another worrying thing to consider, Goodwin dropped the words "mother chassis" as potential scenario on the Pruett podcast couple of weeks ago.

Anyway, success ballast is better of the two horrible options yes, for transparency and manipulation avoiding purposes, however that's not going to be the sole thing. And it won't be used for Le Mans anyway. Besides even if there was no bop whatsoever, LMGTP will still be more akin to DPi than LMP1, thanks to OEM branding exercises + spec tires & new spec components + tech freeze.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Another worrying thing to consider, Goodwin dropped the words "mother chassis" as potential scenario on the Pruett podcast couple of weeks ago.

Anyway, success ballast is better of the two horrible options yes, for transparency and manipulation avoiding purposes, however that's not going to be the sole thing. And it won't be used for Le Mans anyway. Besides even if there was no bop whatsoever, LMGTP will still be more akin to DPi than LMP1, thanks to OEM branding exercises + spec tires & new spec components + tech freeze.

I don't think manufacturers are going to go for a mother chassis. As for bop, nothing is written in stone yet so I am hopeful that it's just a set of rules and values that get applied and teams have to stay within them. I don't know how they'll police them but we'll see.

[Deleted]

Maybe not the manufacturers, but the privateers

I don't want stock chassis with masqueraded body parts from another company inserted into it, sounds too much like that other category

[HopAlong]

One thing I don't get with these new rules is the aesthetics. If you look at most brands hypercars and limited run stuff, they look nothing like the brands main product line. The AMG project one shares no noticeable design with any other Mercedes and the Lola Aston had more Aston styling to it the Valkyrie.


Aren't we essentially getting carbon tubbed hybrid 2014-16 spec Daytona Protoypes?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by HopAlong

One thing I don't get with these new rules is the aesthetics. If you look at most brands hypercars and limited run stuff, they look nothing like the brands main product line. The AMG project one shares no noticeable design with any other Mercedes and the Lola Aston had more Aston styling to it the Valkyrie.


Aren't we essentially getting carbon tubbed hybrid 2014-16 spec Daytona Protoypes?

With Glickenhaus, they are basically going to run their road hypercar that can be converted to road use. So at least one of the guys will look JUST like the road car Who knows, maybe Toyota uses the GR Super Sport and Aston Martin uses the Valkyrie?

[deggis]

Not a single team or manufacturer has uttered a word since the 2020 Hypercar regulations were revealed. So Racecar Engineering did some digging and here’s what we found…

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...percar-update/

[Deleted]

Just abandon them and let em run with the old P1 regs until proper rules are launched (ie zero emission) year or two ahead of original timeline

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

Not a single team or manufacturer has uttered a word since the 2020 Hypercar regulations were revealed. So Racecar Engineering did some digging and here’s what we found…

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...percar-update/

Glickenhaus isn't a team or manufacturer? Better call Jim! That article was pretty much false. Not just Glickenhaus has commented, but committed. ByKolles expressed interest and is hiring for the new rules. My guess is that the big guys haven't said anything because there's still talks going on behind the scenes.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by TF110

Glickenhaus isn't a team or manufacturer? Better call Jim! That article was pretty much false. Not just Glickenhaus has commented, but committed. ByKolles expressed interest and is hiring for the new rules. My guess is that the big guys haven't said anything because there's still talks going on behind the scenes.

Tru dat...

[deggis]

Yes, pretty odd how Glickenhaus was entirely omitted.

[Juntos]

Originally Posted by deggis

Yes, pretty odd how Glickenhaus was entirely omitted.

Maybe there is a reason for that. That journo is good.

[S griffin]

I like to think there are good reasons for doing it. There are plenty of good journos out there

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Juntos

Maybe there is a reason for that. That journo is good.

He failed the mention the only officially announced program (as official as it can be at this point). So he has either genuinely missed the news which would be pretty unbelievable, or intentionally omitted it to make things sound (even) worse.

[S griffin]

Well maybe we need to wait and see. To be fair it's a tough series to follow at times

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

He failed the mention the only officially announced program (as official as it can be at this point). So he has either genuinely missed the news which would be pretty unbelievable, or intentionally omitted it to make things sound (even) worse.

I'm leaning towards the latter You know that a negative story gets people talking. Now I feel like like a contributer to it

[Akrapovic]

All WEC stories must be negative, whilst all IMSA stories must be positive. That's the rules, damn it.

Anyway, Hypercar isn't looking particularly great, no, but it isn't as bad as that article claims it to be. Jim Glick obviously does count (and he's made that clear on the last page!), and ByKolles count just as much as IMSA counts the Nissan DPi that isn't a Nissan DPi, or how everyone counts yet another AF Corse Ferrari on any given GT3 grid. And you have to think that Rebellion will have something too - they just don't tend to talk about their plans early.