Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 1 Jan 2019, 15:47 (Ref:3873443)   #16
NaBUru38
Veteran
 
NaBUru38's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Uruguay
Las Canteras, Uruguay
Posts: 7,938
NaBUru38 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridNaBUru38 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridNaBUru38 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Customer cars would require far less employees.See IndyCar.
NaBUru38 is offline  
__________________
"Show me a driver who didnít make a handful of errors this year, and Iíll show you someone who wasnít trying hard enough." - David Malsher
Quote
Old 2 Jan 2019, 18:44 (Ref:3873667)   #17
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 2,776
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Apologies for the long post. I have been on a bit of a self imposed forum sabbatical between Christmas and New Year. So lots of thoughts on my end...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bella View Post
f1 teams at the pointy end are far, far too big.
Agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
But F1 teams will spend however much they can get in a valiant attempt to be as competitive (or in Mercedes' case, as dominant) possible.
A theme for this post will be that people will spend money if they have it. So teams will grow as large as their funding allows. Success keeps the teams going. So a large monster of a team that is ALSO successful... Well... let them be the poster child for this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
I dont understand why people say this.
So I didn't quote your entire post. As you mention, you are fired up and your comments indicate as much. To be honest, I don't fully understand what your message was. I "think" you are saying that the situation is obscene. It is, but I don't think unique to F1. Look at the tech industry as a whole. I will pick on Apple for a moment. Overpriced product (sorry, to you Apple fans, not trying to pick a fight) while allows for extravagant spending at the corporate level. Spending (UFO HQ anyone?) that is not necessary, but happens because the budget exists to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
F1 teams are fairly barebones operations of hundreds of engineers slogging away on parts for the car (or research on how to make it faster) in a huge open plan space:
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Of course Toro Rosso are one of the smaller teams. Renault, Red Bull and all the rest are similar -- and, in fact, even bigger.
I challenge the "bare-bones" moniker. I suspect that regardless of the industry, if you ask senior management they will claim they are running very efficiently and with as small as staff as they can get by with. I think the reality is the level of funding drives staffing levels in all industries. If you are a highly profitable company, you will grow fat even if you think you are lean. I think a very eye opening experience is to work for a company that is struggling and to see how you can get by on much less. Granted, that is not a recipe for success, but you can see what "bare-bones" really is. Also the disparity in size between teams illustrates that bare-bones does not apply to all. I would say that some of the current teams might be bare-bones in that they are large enough to survive, but that is all they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Here is a Toro Rosso factory tour for example
Thanks. That (the corrected link) was an interesting video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
The problem is that most teams design and machine every single nut and bolt themselves, even the gearbox.
As crazy as it seems today, I think it could even be worse. Imagine if it was economically feasible for someone like Mercedes to be 2x or 10x! bigger than they are today. Details that today are left unexplored would be examined in a team that size. Impossible you say? Roll the clock back decades. Teams were smaller and the solutions were simpler yet the regulations would have allowed complex solutions (as measured by today's standards). Remember that today is the future as defined yesterday. What will tomorrow look like?

I think I have posted on this next point before, but I love the idea of "The Last Man Who Knew Everything". The book (which I need to read) attributes this to be a British scientist from the late 1700's early 1800's named "Thomas Young". The point is that human knowledge continues to advance and that what could be done (or understood) has grown beyond that of a single individual. I think that broadly speaking, this situation has happened to F1 within the lifetime of participants of this forum. So it is confusing to see this happen and to truly understand what HAS happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bella View Post
it shouldn't take seven hundred people to directly produce a f1 car. that's where the fault is. not with some of the midfield and backmarker teams working with a far more realistic and sustainable budget and workforce.
So regardless of my comments above that the teams will just naturally grow due to the complexity. I agree with bella above. The question is... how to fix this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
I'll keep on watching the sport but I fear this forum has run out of future or interesting points of view
I have a comment on that topic in the "How to Fix F1?" thread. Specifically what the fans think/want.

Richard
Richard Casto is online now  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 6 Jan 2019, 18:00 (Ref:3874312)   #18
V8 Fireworks
Veteran
 
V8 Fireworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 1,503
V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by bella View Post
it shouldn't take seven hundred people to directly produce a f1 car. that's where the fault is. not with some of the midfield and backmarker teams working with a far more realistic and sustainable budget and workforce.
It shouldn't, yet it does if you want to be competitive.

I would propose making equal FOM payments to all teams, semi-spec aerodynamics with ground effects aero, strict restrictions on the type and number of dampers fitted in the suspension (no fancy heave dampers, front rear interconnect etc), a control gearbox (XTRac or Hewland) and a control turbo (and of course a non-hybrid simple V6 twin turbo, for example, identical to Indycar 2021 2.4L twin turbo V6 with 1000hp, with a price cap on the season lease and a requirement to supply any team who requests a supply).

Yet others are SO against control parts in F1!? How to convince them control parts and nearly spec aero is OK? How to convince them that simple rudimentary Indycar power units are OK?
V8 Fireworks is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Jan 2019, 22:12 (Ref:3874348)   #19
Oldtony
Veteran
 
Oldtony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Australia
Gold Coast Australia
Posts: 1,616
Oldtony should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridOldtony should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridOldtony should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridOldtony should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Yet others are SO against control parts in F1!? How to convince them control parts and nearly spec aero is OK? How to convince them that simple rudimentary Indycar power units are OK?

Many attempts have been made to set up semi-spec series over the years which just die away after a little burst of attention?


And that is in spite of them supplying what many here would suggest is what they want in "Good racing". Such series can, and do, continue as National or regional (ie Indy) series but never as the "International peak of the sport" that F1 claims to be.


The advanced technology of F1 is what sets it apart. Any significant watering down of that situation will be opposed by a very significant proportion of the fan base as well as the teams and manufacturers.


The underlying basic problem is that F1 provides both the WDC and the WCC and ther will always be tension between the two. The original concept of F1 was to provide a competition for the WDC. The WCC came later as in the early stages of F1 (1950s) sports car endurance racing was seen as the proper competition for manufacturers and teams to demonstrate superiority.

Maybe moving back to that separated situation has merit?.
Oldtony is offline  
__________________
Geting old is mandatory, acting old is optional.
Quote
Old 6 Jan 2019, 22:52 (Ref:3874354)   #20
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,994
S griffin has a real shot at the podium!S griffin has a real shot at the podium!S griffin has a real shot at the podium!S griffin has a real shot at the podium!S griffin has a real shot at the podium!
I think there needs to be the right balance. Clearly thereís too much aero on the current cars. That needs to be reduced. But there also needs to be some challenge technologically
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 7 Jan 2019, 10:24 (Ref:3874422)   #21
Moneyseeker
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,310
Moneyseeker should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMoneyseeker should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMoneyseeker should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMoneyseeker should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
I think there needs to be the right balance. Clearly thereís too much aero on the current cars. That needs to be reduced. But there also needs to be some challenge technologically

There is also far too much simulation and honing of the car before it has even turned a wheel at the track. I would ban all circuit to factory contact during the weekend and ban the use of simulators during the GP weekend, so their sim drivers are not trying endless set up changes for the team. Let's just get back to the driver and their race engineer finessing the car during free practice. I would also have a spec tyre for free practice only that is not used in the race so the teams don't collect tyre data and then simulate that before qualifying and the race. We need a few more variables IMO. I would even bring in a spec qualifying tyre to bring in a certain control factor into Q, this would also see the driver start the race on tyres that they have not run on before at the weekend at all.



Apologies for straying OT!
Moneyseeker is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Jan 2019, 10:27 (Ref:3874423)   #22
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,994
S griffin has a real shot at the podium!S griffin has a real shot at the podium!S griffin has a real shot at the podium!S griffin has a real shot at the podium!S griffin has a real shot at the podium!
And why not limit telemetry while we're at it, then that would put drivers back in charge of knowing what the car is doing
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 7 Jan 2019, 12:09 (Ref:3874439)   #23
sizzle
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Darwin
Posts: 3,344
sizzle should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsizzle should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moneyseeker View Post
There is also far too much simulation and honing of the car before it has even turned a wheel at the track. I would ban all circuit to factory contact during the weekend and ban the use of simulators during the GP weekend, so their sim drivers are not trying endless set up changes for the team. Let's just get back to the driver and their race engineer finessing the car during free practice. I would also have a spec tyre for free practice only that is not used in the race so the teams don't collect tyre data and then simulate that before qualifying and the race. We need a few more variables IMO. I would even bring in a spec qualifying tyre to bring in a certain control factor into Q, this would also see the driver start the race on tyres that they have not run on before at the weekend at all.



Apologies for straying OT!
Quote:
Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
And why not limit telemetry while we're at it, then that would put drivers back in charge of knowing what the car is doing

Amen to all that
sizzle is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Jan 2019, 17:08 (Ref:3874754)   #24
bella
Race Official
Veteran
 
bella's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
France
Posts: 15,525
bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!bella is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moneyseeker View Post
There is also far too much simulation and honing of the car before it has even turned a wheel at the track. I would ban all circuit to factory contact during the weekend and ban the use of simulators during the GP weekend, so their sim drivers are not trying endless set up changes for the team. Let's just get back to the driver and their race engineer finessing the car during free practice. I would also have a spec tyre for free practice only that is not used in the race so the teams don't collect tyre data and then simulate that before qualifying and the race. We need a few more variables IMO. I would even bring in a spec qualifying tyre to bring in a certain control factor into Q, this would also see the driver start the race on tyres that they have not run on before at the weekend at all.

Apologies for straying OT!
to make that even more workable the damn things need to be cheaper to run as well and on-track testing expanded. they all employ a second team of spanners already, it’s not as if the staffing requirements would go up. i have absolutely no idea how to make that more achievable though!
bella is offline  
__________________
devils advocate in-chief and professional arguer of both sides
Quote
Old 9 Jan 2019, 04:51 (Ref:3874879)   #25
sizzle
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Darwin
Posts: 3,344
sizzle should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridsizzle should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14...velopment-role

There it is laid out.

Snip
Ferrari made good use of its development team in 2018, bouncing back from difficult Fridays to perform better in qualifying and the race on several occasions.
.plusdropin {display:none;} @media screen and (min-width:970px) { .plusdropin {display:block; width:120px; color:#2e2e2e; position:absolute; margin-left:-140px; font-size:12px; line-height:14px;} .plusdropin > div {padding:10px; padding-bottom:15px; background:#eceff2;} .plusdropin > div > div {padding-top:4px; padding-bottom:8px} .plusdropin > div a {font-size:13px; line-height:15px; font-weight:600;} .plusdropin > div a:last-of-type {color:#e3000b; box-shadow:inset 0 -1px 0 #9ea2a5; transition: box-shadow .1s;} .plusdropin > div a:last-of-type:hover {box-shadow:none} .plusdropin img {width:120px; margin:0 auto;} }
The most notable example was the Canadian Grand Prix, where Sebastian Vettel was uncompetitive in Friday practice but went on to qualify on pole and win the race on Sunday.
Asked by Autosport at the 2018 season-ending Abu Dhabi GP how important the right replacements for Giovinazzi and Kvyat (pictured above) would be, Vettel said: "You get the point, it is very important.
"Based on our findings [after practice], we changed the car [for qualifying], both of us did, and it was better and we were happier.
"It's not the first time that this has happened so we're extremely thankful for the guys, taking the time.
"It's not the nicest job on Friday night, especially when you're young, but it's important, it all adds up.
sizzle is offline  
Quote
Reply

Bookmarks




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
TGF : Too old for F1, too young to die - retirement is sweet Schumiforeverever Formula One 53 21 Aug 2010 02:15
too Many series & Too many clubs ss_collins National & Club Racing 88 29 Nov 2004 22:30
Are V8's too "big" for their boots? Wizzby Australasian Touring Cars. 75 6 Nov 2003 11:13
Too old? Too careful? Time to retire?? MrSal NASCAR & Stock Car Racing 27 8 Sep 2003 15:30
Too many good drivers - too few F1 seats Valve Bounce Formula One 24 4 Oct 2002 01:47


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 21:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2018 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.