New Volkswagen F3 engine to race this year

[strider]

Originally Posted by andy97

Agree, I'm bored with Formula Dallara, I'd really like to see more Mygales, Lolas & even Ralts out there with different engine packages....engineers need to develop too, and drivers need to learn how to develop different cars.

There's not much chance of that anytime soon, sadly.

Ultimate Motorsport, have been running Mygales in BF3 this season, are said to be talking to Dallara this weekend about switching to the Italian marque next year.

Don't even mention Lola. They actually have a decent chassis there, but have completely bungled the real opportunity they had to break into the F3 market.

[roachy101]

new VW engine being debuted at nurburgring euro f3 round this year apparently

[andy97]

Originally Posted by strider

There's not much chance of that anytime soon, sadly.

Ultimate Motorsport, have been running Mygales in BF3 this season, are said to be talking to Dallara this weekend about switching to the Italian marque next year.

Don't even mention Lola. They actually have a decent chassis there, but have completely bungled the real opportunity they had to break into the F3 market.

I saw the report about Ultimate in MN. Did Lola bungle the opportunity technically or financially, was it conservatism on the part of the main F3 teams who didn't want to take a chance, was the car not developed properly by the team that did run them (can't remember the team), was the business case not sound in the first place?

Trouble is that Dallara have done such a good job over many years now that it will always be difficult to break into F3 as a manufacturer unless you are prepared to take a very long term view & subsidise teams for a good few years before you get your money back. In the unlikely event that Dallara produce a dog in 08, they'll still sell grid fulls!

[strider]

Originally Posted by andy97

I saw the report about Ultimate in MN. Did Lola bungle the opportunity technically or financially, was it conservatism on the part of the main F3 teams who didn't want to take a chance, was the car not developed properly by the team that did run them (can't remember the team), was the business case not sound in the first place?

In 2005 they had quite a good car and two reasonable drivers in Danilo Dirani (run by Roly Vincini and P1 Motorsport) and Steven Kane (run by Promatecme). Dirani won the first two races of the season (in BF3 this is) but Dallara spotted something small on the car that didn't comply with the regulations, so that had to be changed.

Later on Steven Kane had an emotional win at Mondello, which, like Lola, is owned by Martin Birrance, and I think at point they thought they had cracked it. They produced a revised and improved version of the car for last season, but instead of supporting a decent team to to continue to run it in BF3, they went to the German F3 Cup and, to be fair, had some very good results. But if they thought this was on a par with BF3 and the F3 Euroseries, they were kidding themselves. This was proved at Zandvoort, where they were slaughtered. I think one car was withdrawn and another pulled off at the end of the warm-up lap.

So, yes, In my opinion there was a complete failure on the part of those holding the purse strings to support the venture and show genuine commitment. There are some decent people at Lola and they deserve better. As you say, the market is dominated by Dallara, but they are so well organised and produce such a good car that I can't begrudge them their success. These things don't happen by accident.

[ss_collins]

even Ralts

Ralts!!! I can't see that being likely but the Ralt F399 gearbox which is very trick could return to modern F3

05 - 07 spec Chassis - theres

Dome - abandoned but super fast - beats the Jap Dallara's but was only ever fitted with the Super Honda

Lola - did well in Germany but was never fashionable
Ligier - only one ever built? - driven by Hulkenberg - nice looking
SLC R1 - abandoned but very strong aerodynamically
Mygale - Increasingly competitive but not as quick as the Dallara yet
Dallara - still the benchmark

The Lola maybe better than the Dallara or at least its match but it doesn't have 90+ drivers running and developing them. The Dome was a wasted opportunity.

[Valker]

Doesn't Ligier use Ralt gearbox?

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Valker

Doesn't Ligier use Ralt gearbox?

I thought it did originally but changed to a Pankl.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Ralts!!! I can't see that being likely but the Ralt F399 gearbox which is very trick could return to modern F3

I know there's no real chance of Ralt returning as a modern constructor & that its a completely different company to the one I grew up folowing but I thought that the 399 was basically a good car, but just like the Lola & the others..... under developed. Someone was supposd to run one in the National class of Brit F3 about 2 years ago until the series went with a spec Mugen engine & they weren't happy with this idea IIRC. Don't know why.

Sorry, this has turned into a chassis thread & not a VW engine thread but I do think that it is a massive shame that F3 has turned into a one make formula for Dallara Mercs. Perhaps the F3 rules should be changed substantially somehow to produce a clean sheet of paper approach for which no single manufacturer has the blueprint & use the engines from the WTCC/ Formula Masters series to allow a number of different engine manufacturers to be represented. (F Masters would then die, I guess)

[Last2LiftOff]

Originally Posted by andy97

Sorry, this has turned into a chassis thread & not a VW engine thread

So forgive an F3 rookie question: I assume then both Volkswagen and Toyota engines are 2L, 4 cyls. at or near 210 hp; that's the technical reg like? And boy...is that as dumb a question as it sounds?

Originally Posted by andy97

Perhaps the F3 rules should be changed substantially somehow to produce a clean sheet of paper approach for which no single manufacturer has the blueprint & use the engines from the WTCC/ Formula Masters series to allow a number of different engine manufacturers to be represented.

Only just begun following F3 Andy so I don't know any better, but why not? As a fan of a lot of manufacturers, I enjoy the competition. And as someone else suggested earlier (in a BF3 context I think), they're all-for whatever it takes to avoid a Mercedes spec. series.

Originally Posted by andy97

F Masters would then die, I guess

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by andy97

I do think that it is a massive shame that F3 has turned into a one make formula for Dallara

But it isn't Andy. There are still tremendous opportunities for development, nothing like the "cosmetic" spec-formulae.

If you look very closely at the leading British teams you will see all manner of different bodywork and suspension parts which aren't produced by Dallara.

[ss_collins]

Only very minor stuff John - the last major mod to a Dallara F3 car was the Rosberg tail as far as I can remember and that was on the F304

I think everyone in racing wants to see an exciting multi chassis, multi engine, multi box F3 but at the end of the day its a business and if rich dad / rich driver wants the fashionable car that won last year - he'll darn well get it. Sod learning to develop a chassis let a team do that, the driver just wants to win and move on.

Also few team are willing to take a risk by doing something different. But of course Carroll Smith would say that the last of the old will always beat the first of the new. So everyone sticks with what they know. Of course Paul Van Valkenburgh would likely interject pointing out that a new or small team would stand not chance of beating the likes of Carlin whilst using the same kit. So the only way to move forward would be to look what everyone else is doing and then don something different. The First of the new.

Who ever is the second of the new however...

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Only very minor stuff John - the last major mod to a Dallara F3 car was the Rosberg tail as far as I can remember and that was on the F304

You need to take an engineer and see if you can get a closer look. There are cars out there running complete suspension different to Dallara...

[ss_collins]

could you point me in the right direction John as I must have missed it - the F305/6/7 came with mono, twin and triple damper layouts as standard - I've not noticed any deviations from that?

[dave not neil]

F305 came with twin damper as standard. But most euroseries teams went back over to the mono damper, presumably it suits the Kumho's.

Triple damper was individually developed by teams.

A few front running teams have developed there own suspension configurations, most notably Manor and ASM. I beleive Manor were the team that came up with the swept back rear suspension, later adopted by Dallara.

Fortec have also made their own suspension, in wide track, although I beleive the mansells are back to standard suspension due to a deal with Dallara.

Dallara have never released any big updates for the F305, but its never had any challengers, so I think they have a lot up there sleeve, ready to unleash should anyone come close to beating them.

[andy97]

I admit that I'm old fashioned but my formative motor racing years were spent watching F3 races with Ralt, March, Chevron & Argo all winning races - that's what I mean by a multi-chassis formula.

[John Clucas]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I think everyone in racing wants to see an exciting multi chassis, multi engine, multi box F3 ...

Exept those paying the bills! Or the best drivers! Unfortunately a multi chassis, multi engine formula leads to vastly increased costs because of the scope to spend a lot looking for a couple of tenths in the aero or suspension or a couple of brake horsepower. F3 costs about 3 times as much as FR, for cars that are very similar in concept. It leads to a playing field which is far from level and makes it all-but impossible to tell who the best drivers are.

Which is fine if you are a constructor, or an engineer, a technofreak observer or a rich driver.

But not if you want a true DRIVERS championship.

[bella]

no, you're right. if you want a true drivers championship, you give them all the same car and let them figure it out for themselves. just like formula renault.

singlehandedly striking a blow to the non-f1 engineering future of the sport.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by John Clucas

Exept those paying the bills! Or the best drivers! Unfortunately a multi chassis, multi engine formula leads to vastly increased costs because of the scope to spend a lot looking for a couple of tenths in the aero or suspension or a couple of brake horsepower. F3 costs about 3 times as much as FR, for cars that are very similar in concept. It leads to a playing field which is far from level and makes it all-but impossible to tell who the best drivers are.

Which is fine if you are a constructor, or an engineer, a technofreak observer or a rich driver.

But not if you want a true DRIVERS championship.

With that logic, every formula would be single manufacturer chassis, engine, & tyre formula, inc F1. I don't think so!

[John Clucas]

Originally Posted by bella

singlehandedly striking a blow to the non-f1 engineering future of the sport.

Given that there is far more interest in the off-track antics of the drivers in F1, rather than on it, is that such a bad thing?!
Technology (interesting as it is to me) has destroyed the racing in F1. You get more overtaking in a single kart or Caterham race than you get in a season of F1. And it's even more difficult to decide who the best driver really is.

To me, racing is mainly about the competition between drivers, and overtaking on the track, not in the pits. Unfortunately in F3, and even more so in F1, its a competition between engineers. The regulations in both series need to make the driver a significantly more important component.

[ss_collins]

Dallara F305 came with twin or mono front as standard - and twin or triple at the rear. I stand corrected and will go and read my own stuff a bit more closely next time!!

no, you're right. if you want a true drivers championship, you give them all the same car and let them figure it out for themselves. just like formula renault.

I have to agree with her - and that don't happen too often. F3 always has been and always shouuld be multi chassis - if you want a series for the drivers only theres no shortage of spec series, but go to an F1 team and ask them what spec series are doing to technical staff - theres a shortage of people who have developed cars. Only F3, LMP and F1 are really free these days. Spec series are not motor racing, car racing - but "driver racing" I qoute Sergio Rinland there.

The most exciting single seat racing in the UK is Formula Vee - famed for its technical freedom... the best F3 race I've ever watched had five different chassis in it and four engines.

Is a single chassis F3 really cheaper than a multichassis? or do you have to spend the same amount for smaller gains?

I've never run an F3 car so I honestly have no idea of the real costs of development but I do suspect things are geared towards the driver not the car.

But I also agree that Dallara are sandbagging a bit - whilst both Lola and Dome beat them in Germany and Japan on pace there was never a real commercial threat - so no big updates.

By the way does the F307 really exist or do they wear F305 chassis plates? and was there an '07 update kit like there was in '06?


If it was all about the drivers then the sport would be even more dull - the current crop of international single seater drivers are the dullest people there are - no real personalities at all at least from a media perspective (which for spectators etc.) is what matters.

Rudolfo Gonzalez is a one of only a few notable exceptions

[John Clucas]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Is a single chassis F3 really cheaper than a multichassis? or do you have to spend the same amount for smaller gains?

I've never run an F3 car so I honestly have no idea of the real costs of development but I do suspect things are geared towards the driver not the car.

It certainly is! Even a single engine manufacturer - as in National Class F3 significantly reduces costs. Go to a single chassis with very limited mods and costs plummet. Like I say Formula Renault is nearly as powerful ( and could easily be made so with no reliability issues) has a carbon tub comprehensive aero package etc - just like F3, but only costs a third as much.

In any case the vast majority of F1 watchers have not the slightest idea about the subtleties of mass dampers, flexy floors and wings.

Even if you consider the vast costs of F1 ( and very high ones of F3) as acceptable (which I obviously don't), surely you can't be happy with the lack of racing. When the worlds premier formula produces pretty much the worlds most boring racing (if it can really be called that) something has gone seriously wrong.

And when does it get half decent? When it rains - and the driver comes into the equation!

I personally don't care whether the drivers are interesting in the press conference. This is (or is supposed to be) racing, not Dallas, or Celebrity Big Brother.

In the final analysis the more racing costs, the fewer teams and drivers can afford to compete, and the less competitive it becomes. Throw in a lot of downforce and you have all the makings of a boring procession.

[dave not neil]

The F307 is just an updated 305, very slightly.

The 06 update kit consisted of bigger bargeboards and 2 extra boards that go under the front suspension, more like turning vains, and also some 'tusks' that came out from the front corners of the floor, like in F1, to give a type of ground effects by creating an air curtain down the side of the floor. And then in may/june 06, the sidepod chimneys were introduced.

O7 package changed the bargeboards again, making them a lot more cut into and bowl like. The turning vains got moved forward and a little wing was bolted inbetween them, under the tub.

I've got a feeling the F3 rules state the all 'cars' must be built in the first year, and then can only have spares and updates built for them in the follwing years. So most chassis all go by the F305 number, but if you right your tub off and buy a new one from Dallara, it will have F307 stamped in it.

[ss_collins]

ok thanks for the F307 info. Of course the new cycle starts next year.

Whilst its true that spec chassis racing can be entertaining - a lot of it is deathly dull - GP2 is good but a lot of that is dwn to the fact that they have ground effect floors, something that would improve F1 no end - and the FIA have proposed just that.

You mention that spec series cut costs but in the long term they are crippling the motorsport industry, if all the firms are forced out of business then you won't have competition and watch prices rise. Also where do you expect to get the engineers from - the few with multichassis experience will charge huge sums to win, and if you think engineers have no effect in a spec class you are very wrong. Why is it that the same teams carlin etc... always win in spec classes? good engineers.

unless the set up of the car is totally fixed, all run by the same team like FPA, you'll never escape the fact that you need multichassis racing. Bear in mind the vast majority of F1 fans say that they are interested in the technology of the cars.

Read the pages of Racecar Engineering, theres huge numbers of people from all levels of the sport condemning spec racers

[John Clucas]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Whilst its true that spec chassis racing can be entertaining - a lot of it is deathly dull - GP2 is good but a lot of that is dwn to the fact that they have ground effect floors, something that would improve F1 no end - and the FIA have proposed just that.

You mention that spec series cut costs but in the long term they are crippling the motorsport industry, if all the firms are forced out of business then you won't have competition and watch prices rise. Also where do you expect to get the engineers from - the few with multichassis experience will charge huge sums to win, and if you think engineers have no effect in a spec class you are very wrong. Why is it that the same teams carlin etc... always win in spec classes? good engineers.

unless the set up of the car is totally fixed, all run by the same team like FPA, you'll never escape the fact that you need multichassis racing. Bear in mind the vast majority of F1 fans say that they are interested in the technology of the cars.

Read the pages of Racecar Engineering, theres huge numbers of people from all levels of the sport condemning spec racers

Let's take that a point at a time. Re spec chassis. By and large high aero series spoil racing,. High drag, low downforce series enhance it. Which is why Caterhams/Formula Fords/ and Karts/ Formula Vee etc produce outstanding racing.
Re the British Engineering industry. I'm very conscious that Britain is at the heart of the motorsport industry. And proud of it. But, in the final analysis, I want to see the best racing - the racing industry should be subservient to racing, not the reverse.

True, good engineers are key to success in "one-make" championships. But they are vastly cheaper than windtunnels or one-off suspension set-ups.

[strider]

Originally Posted by dave not neil

I've got a feeling the F3 rules state the all 'cars' must be built in the first year, and then can only have spares and updates built for them in the follwing years. So most chassis all go by the F305 number, but if you right your tub off and buy a new one from Dallara, it will have F307 stamped in it.

That's basically correct. The base current car is the F305, but if you bought a brand new car in 2006 or 2007, you would have an F306 or F307, but they are exactly the same as an F305 that has been updated each year.

In Europe they tend to go with the original build year of the chassis, but in UK the tendency is to indicate how up-to-date the chassis is, i.e. an F305 updated to to F307 spec will be called an F307, because it's the same as a pukka F307.