[Multi 21] Red Bull-Honda

[BSchneiderFan]

Gasly has surprised me pleasantly, I didn’t rate him as outstanding before he went to Super Formula and nearly won the thing at the first time of asking, and he’s not disgraced himself at all in F1. It’s a shame I can’t see him getting a better seat soon, unless Ricciardo leaves Red Bull and they promote Sainz.

[Oldtony]

The tests in Budapest this week are an opportunity for Honda to get together with STR (& RBR) engineers to try out some new components.

Might get some indications of more radical changes destined for 2019.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

The tests in Budapest this week are an opportunity for Honda to get together with STR (& RBR) engineers to try out some new components.

Might get some indications of more radical changes destined for 2019.

It's obvious STR are a test mule for RBR. However, if RBR's current problems are to do with the packaging of the Renault PU, who is to say the Honda PU will fit RBR; after all McLaren tried and failed.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It's obvious STR are a test mule for RBR. However, if RBR's current problems are to do with the packaging of the Renault PU, who is to say the Honda PU will fit RBR; after all McLaren tried and failed.

Or did Honda fail to meet the packaging demands of McLaren?
As I said in an earlier post if RBR and Honda go at it as a joint venture with the engineers working together at technical level there is a pretty good chance we will see some success.
If it becomes a demanding customer dealing with a proud and stubborn supplier, no chance.
In other words, Christian stay out of it, Adrian try and cooperate, Honda listen.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It's obvious STR are a test mule for RBR. However, if RBR's current problems are to do with the packaging of the Renault PU, who is to say the Honda PU will fit RBR; after all McLaren tried and failed.

Two vastly different set of circumstances. RB have the leisure of more time and money to build a new chassis with certainty of what is happening the following year while McLaren delayed the decision as long as possible and lost the Honda sponsorship money as well as having to recompense Honda at the same time. The Honda will fit because it will be a new car not a chop job as was forced on McLaren.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Or did Honda fail to meet the packaging demands of McLaren?
As I said in an earlier post if RBR and Honda go at it as a joint venture with the engineers working together at technical level there is a pretty good chance we will see some success.
If it becomes a demanding customer dealing with a proud and stubborn supplier, no chance.
In other words, Christian stay out of it, Adrian try and cooperate, Honda listen.

"Or did Honda fail to meet the packaging demands of McLaren?" There is that, so it will be interesting to see what Honda come up with. Maybe STR might like to share a little packaging with their big sister.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Casper

Two vastly different set of circumstances. RB have the leisure of more time and money to build a new chassis with certainty of what is happening the following year while McLaren delayed the decision as long as possible and lost the Honda sponsorship money as well as having to recompense Honda at the same time. The Honda will fit because it will be a new car not a chop job as was forced on McLaren.

McLaren aren't exactly short of funds, so I don't think that's a given. However, McLaren's delaying the decision was, I think down to intransigence.

[BSchneiderFan]

It’s certainly the case that Red Bull and Honda have given themselves plenty of time to develop the 2019, but that doesn’t mean it’ll necessarily be fast.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

It’s certainly the case that Red Bull and Honda have given themselves plenty of time to develop the 2019, but that doesn’t mean it’ll necessarily be fast.

Not only time.

They also have what amounts to a live, on track test and development team for a full year.

Sure beats dyno testing for sorting out the bugs.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

However, if RBR's current problems are to do with the packaging of the Renault PU, who is to say the Honda PU will fit RBR; after all McLaren tried and failed.

The RBR problems are apparently down to the packaging - they're still running the old MGU-K as the revised more reliable version (that Renault and McLaren are running) won't fit into the Red Bull. So they're slinging mud at Renault about the reliability but aren't fitting the updated more reliable parts that Renault have available for them.

The Honda will fit next years Red Bull as the car will be designed to accept it from the very start of the design process. But again if Honda make changes to the engine once the car is designed then there may need to be some re-work to make the new bits fit in.

[karting]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

The RBR problems are apparently down to the packaging - they're still running the old MGU-K as the revised more reliable version (that Renault and McLaren are running) won't fit into the Red Bull. So they're slinging mud at Renault about the reliability but aren't fitting the updated more reliable parts that Renault have available for them.

The Honda will fit next years Red Bull as the car will be designed to accept it from the very start of the design process. But again if Honda make changes to the engine once the car is designed then there may need to be some re-work to make the new bits fit in.

Pretty sure I read somewhere that it is only Renault who have the new engine, not Red Bull or McLaren

[BSchneiderFan]

Slightly off-topic, but t I think it’s pretty cheap, not to say cheeky, of Cyril Abiteboul to say that Renault have stopped listening to Christian Horner. Red Bull are Renault’s customer, paying many millions of Euros for a product which is, at the moment, sub-standards and not (how I hate this phrase) fit for purpose. Viry Châtillon need to up their game and stop sniping at their customers.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Red Bull are Renault’s customer, paying many millions of Euros for a product which is, at the moment, sub-standards and not (how I hate this phrase) fit for purpose.

But Renault have a fix for the issue with the MGU-K and Red Bull are choosing not to use it. I don't see how that's Renaults fault?

[BSchneiderFan]

Not really good enough to tell a team they have to redesign their car around a new product because the old one’s cr@p. It comes across as if Abiteboul and Renault take no responsibility for the repeated failures, and I find that unacceptable.

[Akrapovic]

I think engineering something on the cutting edge of technology is a bit more complicated than that though.

Renault have provided an improved product, and it requires RBR to make adaptions. They have 2 choices

1 - use the new product and make the relevant updates
2 - use the old product and continue to moan about it

Only one of these has a positive outcome.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Not really good enough to tell a team they have to redesign their car around a new product because the old one’s cr@p. It comes across as if Abiteboul and Renault take no responsibility for the repeated failures, and I find that unacceptable.

What else can Renault do? There's a problem with the old MGU-K - they acknowledge that and have come up with a revised version that solves the issue. If they could have made the revised part the same dimensions as the old one they would have (it would have been easier for them to integrate it too) but clearly they weren't able to. I don't see what else Renault can do?

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I think engineering something on the cutting edge of technology is a bit more complicated than that though.

Renault have provided an improved product, and it requires RBR to make adaptions. They have 2 choices

1 - use the new product and make the relevant updates
2 - use the old product and continue to moan about it

Only one of these has a positive outcome.

Red Bull are choosing to use the old part - there's not much Renault can do about that.

Red Bull: "Hey Renault this MGU-K is junk"
Renault: "Yep, we agree - here's an updated one"
Red Bull: "We're not putting that on our car"
Red Bull: "Hey Renault this MGU-K is junk"

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

...Red Bull: "Hey Renault this MGU-K is junk"
Renault: "Yep, we agree - here's an updated one"
Red Bull: "We're not putting that on our car"
Red Bull: "Hey Renault this MGU-K is junk"

What I'd call closed-loop whinging!

[BSchneiderFan]

What else can Renault do? How about dignified silence?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

What else can Renault do? How about dignified silence?

But if Red Bull are throwing dirt at Renault surely they have a right to respond? Especially as Renault have the fix available - if Renault were just "head in the sand" and ignoring the problem then I'd understand Red Bull throwing dirt - but Renault have the fix and Red Bull aren't using it - but they're still throwing dirt at Renault.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

What else can Renault do? How about dignified silence?

It's hard to maintain a dignified silence when one of your customers is refusing an upgrade and then doing the motorsport equivalent of going around review sites and rating you one star every time someone with a microphone is within a square km of them.

There's two sides to every story. Renaults responses have been more dignified than any that Whiny Spice has made.

[chillibowl]

imo they both have cause to be unhappy with each other.

kind of glad their partnership/commercial deal is coming to an end.

i would be worried if i was Mclaren though...they probably have similar packaging concerns and Renault are (i would imagine) clearly designing parts that work first for their works team.

[TzeiTzei]

Verstappen took his 3rd MGU-K at Monaco (only the 6th race of the season ). Taking a new one just for the sake of security would have meant taking a grid penalty.

At Hockenheim Red Bull wanted to change Ricciardo's ICE, MGU-H and turbo since he was taking grid penalties anyway. Renault refused. Try figure that out.

And if the new MGU-K version requires modifications to the car, is it something that you can do during the race weekend? Both Verstappen and Ricciardo last changed their MGU-Ks during the race weekend as the old one went up in smoke. So not a pre planned change.

[GT6]

if the replacement part was used in the renault works car i can see why red bull choose not to use it, a wise choice i think.

[dsg]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

And if the new MGU-K version requires modifications to the car, is it something that you can do during the race weekend? Both Verstappen and Ricciardo last changed their MGU-Ks during the race weekend as the old one went up in smoke. So not a pre planned change.

5 races over a 6 week period doesn't help much either.

[Oldtony]

Meanwhile on a more positive note STR and Honda were taking the opportunity to put together a heap of data yesterday.

Hartley did 126 laps testing Honda and STR bits.
Gelael did 109 laps in the STR Honda test mule for Pirelli.
Gelael visited the scenery to put an end to his run but there were no mechanical niggles indicating an advance in reliability.
Testing continues today running both cars again.
Data from Hungary will not be particularly applicable to Spa and Monza but they are getting the foundations right.