Procar - what should they do to fix it ?

[Matthew Ronke]

I have been pondering over what would be the best course of action I believe for Procar in the future. The competitors seem the main focus currently so I decided to have a look at the attendance rates for the last 3 years.

http://helix.racetime.com.au/files/w...ar%20stats.pdf

The above address gives all the attendance for each category at each circuit based on Saturday sessions, the idea being I will not have missed any that pulled out because of mechanical problems and some categories don’t run Fridays. It may be a little out, but not significant enough to change overall trends.

One thing that becomes obvious looking at the data, is that the further away from Melbourne or Sydney the fewer entries there seem to be. This would be attributed to the cost of travel, Tasmania seems to be more affected than Queensland, which would seem fairly obvious.

There is not a significant difference between Victorian circuits and NSW circuits with the exception of Wakefield Park who seems to drop about a dozen entries.

Winton 131 (averaged over 3 years)
Oran Park 125 (averaged over 3 years)
Phillip Island 123 (averaged over 2 years)
Eastern Creek 122 (1 year)
Sandown 120 (1 year)
Wakefield 113 (averaged over 3 years)

Bearing this information in mind does the status of the circuit or style of the circuit have any influence on the ability of the series to draw entries? There seems to be a small suggestion it does, but does not seem to have a significant influence on the overall entries for the race meetings.

The other interesting trends relate to the individual categories and where they seem to be heading. The Graph of this data suggests that three categories are heading on an upward direction and three categories in a downward direction. APCC started as the lowest draw of entires and now rates the highest, Brutes have been steadily increasing their numbers and the GTP have also increased numbers with the exception of the last round. Nations Cup seems to be decreasing with the odd spike of entries, F3 steadily increased their numbers but is now decline to where they started and the Porsche Challenge which started as the best attend PROCAR category has rapidly been in decline since. The trend I see here is to move away from the more expensive categories such as NC, F3 & PDC and move towards the production based less expensive categories such as APCC, GTP & Brutes. APCC being the most benefited by increased numbers yet one of the lesser Glamorous categories in the PROCAR group.

The latter part of 2003 was PROCAR strongest time in terms of competition numbers and seems to be around 20 cars per meeting down in 2004 but with one less category. So is the solution to the PROCAR problem the cost of racing, the level of championship or the parity between cars.

Personally from the data above I would suggest that the order of address would be
1). Cost containment (make the racing more affordable and draw in more entries)
2). Status of Championship (with more entries in each category you can start to build up the status of the championship. Much easier to do with 25 or 30 cars than 6 or 7)
3). Parity (now you have lots of cars competing in a serious championship environment, you need to keep the racing close to keep the cars and the spectators in the series.)

It probably not as simple as that, but its what should be the basis for getting things sorted. Although there are many other influencing factors that have not been considered. Take a look at the data and add them, If you know of a particular factor that has influenced the level of entries over the period or if you have a theory on what to do.

[Robert Ryan]

Problem is who is going to see GTP by itself or the Brutes by themselves?
I think the slower Nations Cup cars should join GTP(increasing the variety of cars) then the series should be added to the Konica /Minolta series. It would be a win-win solution for both catergories.
F3 should join Formula 4000 in the Premier series(Peter Boylan was thinking along those lines just recently)
Utes would go the V8Supercars, making it even more like a roadracing version of NASCAR.
APCC could got to the Premier series.
Porsche series..solit between GTP and the Premier series.

[laser]

I think that it is highly unlikely that the categories will be split up - the main four anyway. F3 are a slightly different beast, and might be able to find a slot on another promoter's card, but who ?

[GTRMagic]

Originally posted by laser
I think that it is highly unlikely that the categories will be split up - the main four anyway. F3 are a slightly different beast, and might be able to find a slot on another promoter's card, but who ?

I took a very rough survey today at Wakefield... by looking from high above the circuit to see the fans on the fence....

The categories they flocked to the fence for were BRutes... and to a lesser extent GT Performance...

GT Production was a reason to get some lunch I think.... while Nations Cup had its race after the BRutes, by which time most of the crowd on the hill had gone....

To think these wont be broken up is not to accept the will of the people... the original underlying assumption of the class was that NC was the reason people went to PROCAR... but it seems somehow not to be so....

[Just Do It!]

Lucky we don't have NC cars in our garages, GTR

[mixxer]

What should they do to fix it ?

Promote the damm thing for starters, bombard the local media before the events and let people know that they are out there promoting production based racing

[worried]

After seeing today, my thoughts:

Ditch F3 - whilst I have been a supporter of them 10 cars makes a movkery of the category and with the BS associated with them (12 minute run downs etc) this is NOT something Australian crowds want to see. Todays effort was a complete joke.

If the BRutes are to continue to have 3 races the third race MUST be the last race of the day - as soon as race 3 was completed, as GTR says, the crowd started to disappear - this is not helpful and doesn't give any category that follows them any confidence.

Nations Cup - about time the vet was brought in to put them to sleep - they are, sorry to say, a joke these days. It is unlikely to see any other cars coming into NC and, as such, expect to see them run with other categories for the remainder of any PROCAR meetings. If Porsche don;t go to Mallala (as expected) then NC will be an absolute joke.

[D.R.T.]

Geez I wouldn't want to bring my cat to that vet.

Nations Cup has huge potential, and changes to capture this potential are well on the way. But many are forgetting to realise that things cant be changed overnight, give the guys some time to fix things before you call the bell.


To fix current problems, as stated before a solid marketing plan for the series and the various categories. As together the package isnt matched in Australia

[racer69]

There is only one problem i see with Nations Cup, and that is the lack of a rules package. Over the last 2-3 years there are plenty of people who have been willing to run a Group 1 car, and plenty of variety in there as well, but the whole 'make it up as they go along' system scared the lot of them off. And Nations Cup needs to have proper longer races, drivers (especially owner-drivers) aren't willing to risk their very expensive Ferrari's etc... by do-or-die manouvres in a 20 minute sprint......

A better TV deal would be a good start. Why they don't try and do a deal for some TV on Foxtel (which would probably be cheaper for more air-time) with highlights on Speedweek i'm not sure. Foxtel is getting quite common these days, you wouldn't be cutting alot of households out.

The variety of the whole PROCAR package needs to be maintained as well. Combining with the Konica's (where they will be treated as second-rate) is a very much backwards step in my opinion.

And one last piece of advice, keep the RX7's in GT-P.

[pete55]

What they should do is ask the owners of registered cars (NC) if they intend to compete and if the majority don't want to, then kill the class.
Make GTP the top class; allow some other cars in, have different length races (maybe enduros), amd promote it.
Brutes, Production and F3 should stay on the program and maybe fill the program with Sports Sedans and the NC cars and Porche Cup cars together.
Finally i reckon Procar went down hill when Ross Palmer gave in to CAMS on the Carrera Cup issue. As far as i'm concerned Ross had a really weak moment then.

[worried]

A merketing plan now is not going to nelp NC - they have had 18 months to try and fix the problem and anything done now will be too little, too late. On top of this is the uncertainty fo teh entire PROCAR category at present.

The killer for NC was allowing domination by one or two cars and in particular allowing a car such as the Monaro to run rampant the way it has.

Sorry - the vet is needed and needed urgently.

[pplater]

The Monaro running rampant?

So, Pretty's leading the series is he?

Bzzzzzt. Thanks for playing.

IMO, PROCAR must combine NC and GTP in a 24hr-esque spectacle. Eac round must have one sprint race and one fifty-lapper with a mandatory tyre change.

Also, the idea of 'parity' must be dealt with... If fans know tat the cars are knobbled, then that relly hurts how you percieve the series. Remove the restrictors from the Lambo, let the GT2 run 30psi boost, remove the netbal team from the ferrari, and allow modified import JDM cars to run, like the Falken GT-R that races at the Nurburgring 24.

Bring back drifting...

Pros:
- One huge field, lots of passing in the enduros
- A new crowd to draw from. Appeal to the playstation generation.

Cons:
- Field too diverse? Big gaps betwen NC and GTP
- Smaller teams wouldn't get great TV time

I could write more, but... meh.

[Chucky]

IF you ditch NC and F3 the rest will completely fold. I willexplain it like this, the more expensive categories with pro teams are suffering presently from a seriously sick category,lacking promotion and a solid calender/marketing plan. To lose them would be to turn the whole thing into a club level series and that cannot be supported at national level.

Fix the headache but don't cut off the head to do it.

[D.R.T.]

Originally posted by worried
A merketing plan now is not going to nelp NC - they have had 18 months to try and fix the problem and anything done now will be too little, too late. On top of this is the uncertainty fo teh entire PROCAR category at present.

18 months err, that was beginning of 2003 season. Things were healthy, from that point on things went down. But 2004 was when the problems became evident, so I dont know where you got the idea that there have been problems since start of 2003.

Can I ask, why is everyone so quick to write of Nations Cup

[Hybrid]

Being a fan of the motorbikes why couldn,t car racing on this level be mixed to keep it going, for example the sidecars in motorbikes was always popular.

[Senna05]

I don't think the Monaro has ruined the series. However, the events aroudn it have made some people walk away from it.

John Bowe and PHR walked away from the series due to it (so I'm lead to believe) and alot of the Porsche guys feel that they are better off racing in CC as they cant match the pace of it (also, so I'm lead to beleive).

So, the answer is simple. I think the N-GT rules are brilliant, and after seeing some brittish stuff on Fox, I think that th current cars can be made to conform somehow - maybe not a 5.7L engine, but a restricted 7L (or 6.5L?) The Lambo can conform, and rather than the firebreathing 550, why not run the 360GT(not challenge).

It would take a year of headache to get it back to where it was. Have Brutes and GTP as the showcase for a year and rung NC-GT as the secondary, yet faster series. Getting some comercial support to have a couple of classes (IE, GT, Porche Cup and Trophy) would bring some CC guys back, and hopefully induce some of the lder cars back into the fray, and entice some of the Oceania cars out?

I have to say, if the classes were as awfull as they are proclaimed, would Brock, Bowe, Simenson and et al have been floating around for a few years?

[MRJUCY]

Simple the Monaros made the series look like a joke what manufacturer or importer would be willing to pour money into being used as cannon fodder for a Holden marketing exercise & before that the sport had a healthy interest from true car enthusiasts who weren't interested in the V8 Supercircus & many of these people felt racing a hotrod that was designed to try & encourage bogans to watch the series was an insult to there intelligence.

[GTRMagic]

The 3 biggest patrons of that category have walked away from Nations Cup.... Mr Palmer, Mr Algadri and indeed Mr Raftis.

The days of having 4 or 5 360 Challenge cars, plus a 360 N-GT on the grid are gone.... two squads of them, one with the PHR squad, the other with Ross Palmer Motorsport....

These guys have walked from the category... no owner can stump for a $400k race car to win a Trophy class.... and be blown off in outright terms...

... having said that I believe you can now pick up one of the 360's in MCR's workshop for under $200k....

[pete55]

I was just looking at some pics of the Wakefield meeting. Some of the Brutes and GTP cars have some pretty wild paint jobs. They look really good.
Have a look at the Nandi Kiss Brute.

[monaroCountry]

Simple the Monaros made the series look like a joke what manufacturer or importer would be willing to pour money into being used as cannon fodder for a Holden marketing exercise & before that the sport had a healthy interest from true car enthusiasts who weren't interested in the V8 Supercircus & many of these people felt racing a hotrod that was designed to try & encourage bogans to watch the series was an insult to there intelligence.

The utes are popular....there goes your anti holden, anti V8 rant hahahahhahhhaha

[Matthew Ronke]

or GTR is it more of a costs Vs competivness situation that has forced these people out. I think they where the two main reasons PHR switched to the BMW.

[aj_308]

200k? cheaper than the road going varient?

[GTRMagic]

Originally posted by aj_308
200k? cheaper than the road going varient?

bear in mind these cars are 2000/2001 manufacture.... suitably freshened by the skilled hands of sometime forum poster ff's conscience of course

Mr Koundouris had use of the Marlboro red car which is for sale at MCR at the moment for around the dollars I mentioned, while Mr Wilson has a black version as used at last year's B24 for a similar number.....