Mansell vs Coulthard in 1995

Guy Goddard2 · 18 Jun 2002, 22:25 (Ref:316562)

In my view Frank Williams made an error of judgement by not putting Mansell in the Williams in 95 and this was further backec up by Coulthards dreadful mistakes (crashing into the pit wall in Australia and spinning out on the warm up lap in Italy).
Willaims needed an experienced hand and having two in expreience racers just didnt work out and hence TGF exposed and played on their weakness as a team.

Had Mansell been in the Williams in 95 he would have taken the championship in 95 and 96 before retiring in 97.

Any views?

Guy

Jordi · 18 Jun 2002, 22:57 (Ref:316572)

At all. DC was even better than Damon a good bit of the time in 1995. Mansell should have retired after his CART title, in my opinion
Mansell would never have won the title... Plus the car broke down a few times, like in Canada, Brazil, Spain...

I'm glad it went like it went, with my two favourite drivers Villeneuve and Hill winning....

f1manoz · 19 Jun 2002, 00:29 (Ref:316604)

This goes into the growing list of 'What ifs....' in this forum!

IMO Mansell would have been the better choice with his years of experience, and he was certainly ready for another crack at a World Title, so he would have increased his fitness ten-fold during the winter and tested to the extreme to prepare himself to drive the new breed of F1 cars.

Hill would also have been better off with Nigel as a team-mate, particularly in his battles with TGF.

**Spudgun** · 19 Jun 2002, 08:21 (Ref:316735)

But as ever it probably came down to cash. Nigel was more expensive than David, so Frank went for DC.

Frank isn't known for coughing up lots of cash for drivers.

Mr V · 19 Jun 2002, 08:36 (Ref:316746)

Quote:

Originally posted by Spudgun

Frank isn't known for coughing up lots of cash for drivers.

Thats why it's made all the more laughable that he pays Rafe $12 million.

I agree with Guy, Mansell would definatly have been the better choice for '95, but at the time DC did look like he could be the next british WDC (isn't hindsight a wonderful tool!). Not that it matters now, but my only worry would have been if, had Mansell raced for Williams in '95 it may have damaged Damon's chances of the WDC that he rightly deserved in '96.

Damon · 19 Jun 2002, 08:48 (Ref:316754)

As much as I idolised Nigel there is no way he would have won for williams in 95. Don't forget that when he didn't get that drive he signed for Mclaren where he did abysmily in the first few races of the year (qualifying poorly, spinning off etc.) before giving up.

Mr V · 19 Jun 2002, 08:55 (Ref:316758)

Obviously we all have our own opinions about this Damon, and i respect yours, however, don't forget, at the end of '94, Mansell claimed a 4th place at Japan and a win at Australia, this would have given him alot of confidence going into the '95 season with Williams. As for the McLaren debacle, that car was an out and out dog (especially compared to a Williams or Benetton), wasn't it Mark Blundell (Mansell's replacement) who got overtaken by Take Inoue, the only car Inoue actually managed to overtake all year? No wonder Mansell got fed up and left.

Damon · 19 Jun 2002, 09:05 (Ref:316763)

I appreciate that mr v and actually put in another post that Nige won in Australia '94. I just feel that those two performances were one offs. He also had a far from out standing race in France 94 as well remember. He wasn't fit enough and I think only damaged his reputation by coming back to F1 at the beginning of 95.

**Spudgun** · 19 Jun 2002, 10:23 (Ref:316814)

Quote:

Originally posted by mr v.
Thats why it's made all the more laughable that he pays Rafe $12 million.

I would really like to know how they justify that one!

Rafe's manager doesn't work for Carlsberg does he??

Jordi · 19 Jun 2002, 10:29 (Ref:316821)

We could also start to say "what if Alesi had joined Williams instead of Ferrari...?"

f1manoz · 19 Jun 2002, 11:52 (Ref:316882)

Mansell was completely expecting to be driving for Williams in 1995. He had once again moved his family, this time from the USA to Britain, ready to become a full-time Williams driver. When he was informed that he wouldn't get the seat, it was a body blow as he was convinced he'd done enough to secure the seat.

Why he went to McLaren for a seat has always puzzled me, as it was destined to never work even if the car was a good one, but the fact the car was a ****box didn't help the situation one iota. The first time Mansell drove it he knew it was a ****box!

There was then all the stories about Mansell not fitting in the car. This was because Nige has always been rather 'big' compared to most, and the 1995 McLaren was most likely designed around Mika.

calais · 19 Jun 2002, 11:58 (Ref:316888)

i think there were 10 million reasons why nige went to mclare, manoz!!!!
personally, i think williams made the right decision in taking DC over nige.
i dont rate hill at all, but in the races they raced together in 94, hill had the measure of mansell. and in 95, DC showed he had the speed to match and beat hill

f1manoz · 19 Jun 2002, 12:03 (Ref:316895)

Hill has the measure of Mansell because he'd been driving the car all year calais!!!!!

But yes, money (and lots of it) was a major factor in Nige going to McLaren. But he would also have been expecting a far better car than was designed. Even the Mercedes engine that year was a lump.

gringottsdirect · 19 Jun 2002, 13:21 (Ref:316944)

Williams should have had Mansell in the car for '93 to defend his title.
He could have gone to Indy for '94 and '95, then returned to win championships easily in '96 and '97. Then retired.
Still, that's like saying Jacques should be in a McLaren for '98 and '99, then moved to Ferrari for 2000 and 2001.
Schumacher has had too little opposition to be regarded as best ever.

f1manoz · 19 Jun 2002, 13:50 (Ref:316955)

Williams and Mansell couldn't agree terms at all for 1993, the major problem being Mansell wanted MAJOR compensation for having to put up with Prost for next season (anyone who didn't know, Mansell loathed Prost!) However, Frank was unwilling to come to terms either, and both being hard-headed blokes, Mansell eventually said 'Stuff it' and signed on for CART.

steve_r · 20 Jun 2002, 10:22 (Ref:317470)

Quote:

Originally posted by Damon
I appreciate that mr v and actually put in another post that Nige won in Australia '94. I just feel that those two performances were one offs.

But Mansell only ran a few races in '94, didn't he? How can they be "one offs".

Rambo · 20 Jun 2002, 10:35 (Ref:317478)

I think Hill had shown he was extremely fast racing alongside Prost. He needed that number one spot (hell, he was thrashing Senna before Ayrton's... demise) and I think, much as I loved him, Mansell would have spoiled Hill's career. He should have called it quits at the end of '94 after getting more money from 4 races than Frank had offered him for the season. Instead he got in that awful McLaren that had made Andretti look foolish and found that he couldn't fit in the car...

Mansell would have still been fast in '95, sure. Whether he'd have taken the championship from Schuey is another matter. Or Hill, even. Of course, with those tow taking each other out several times he'd have cleaned up, (deja vu Adelaide) and probably walked it.

But "What If?"s are pointless. What if the FIM hadn't been a bunch of pr*cks and screwed Haga in the 2000 WSBK championship...

Sato san · 20 Jun 2002, 20:29 (Ref:317832)

now were talking !!!..Nori chan ...what a star !!!

anyway , back to Mansell ...Had he not gone to Indy Car in 93 , he wouldnt have had a hope in hell moving to the states in 94 as that years Lola wasnt a patch on Reynards debut winning Indy Car . Nige struggled all year in 94 with a uncompetive car .
But as it happened with him moving over there in 93 , it made his timing perfect as that was when Newman Hass were right on the money . Thats when they had Jim Mgee as the team manager , and he helped Mansell a huge amount to win the title in his rookie year .

Mind you , i still think Frank was wrong in signing Coulthard in 95 . Mansell deserved a one year contract to push TGF hard in 95 . Personally i wish Mansell had never gone to Mclaren , but its easy to say that now , had they produced a great car that year Nige would have looked top class again.

Guy Goddard2 · 20 Jun 2002, 22:20 (Ref:317904)

My view that Mansell would have done better that year than both Hill and Coulthard it is not only his driving but also the fact he would have pushed Renault alot harder to bring the car up to pace in speed and reliability.

TGF had the measure of Hill in 95 sicologically and played on it, however Mansell had seen this before with Senna and new how to play the game.

Whilst there may have been rifts in the passed with Mansell and Williams they did enjoy much success together and worked well as a partnership.
Whilst there may be doubt of Mansell claiming the title in 95 he would have blown Prost away in 93 had he stayed but Mansell new working with Prost was not about who was the best driver more to do with "political movements" within the team as he demostrated at Ferrari.

Anyone know what Mansell is doing now and is he planning any racing in the near future?

Regards

Guy

Jordi · 20 Jun 2002, 23:59 (Ref:317952)

Uhhh... "...he would have blown Prost..."

Didn't seem like so at Ferrari from the start of the year till the end of 1990.

Ron Dennis: "If they were given the same car to tune and race...."

gringottsdirect · 21 Jun 2002, 00:45 (Ref:317970)

As we know Ferrari always let their drivers race without any interference of favouritism.
1990 or 2002 same as ever.

calais · 21 Jun 2002, 04:45 (Ref:318038)

Quote:

Originally posted by Rambo
I think Hill had shown he was extremely fast racing alongside Prost. He needed that number one spot (hell, he was thrashing Senna before Ayrton's... demise)

HUH?????
are you serious???

same goes for gringottsdirect's post

Rambo · 21 Jun 2002, 08:58 (Ref:318100)

Yes, I'm serious. Hill beat Prost to the flag several times in 1993 and in '94 Senna was doing his usual trick of taking pole - but that doesn't mean he'd get to the flag first. Look at his pole/win ratio compared to other top drivers. Senna just had that edge in qualifying. Call it bad luck (Senna had plenty of that in '94!) but Hill was doing better than he was. Of course, you could say it was because Hill had been in the car a while, had helped develop it and had a better relationship with Williams, but there you go... Hill wasn't just quick because the car was - you only need to look at DC's drives to see that.

**Peter Mallett** · 21 Jun 2002, 09:24 (Ref:318105)

In short DC just isn't good enough and never has been. Hill was good enough to get the best out of his car. Mansell needed encouragement to perform and once he was on his game nothing could stop him. The only names mentioned here that are in the wrong company, are those of Coulthard and M Andretti. All the others mentioned have won the world championship.

calais · 21 Jun 2002, 09:26 (Ref:318108)

to say that hill had the edge on senna in early 94 is wrong.
the guy comes into a new team and scores three poles in three races, and in brazil he was leaving hill behind until he spun.
granted, hill kept prost honest in 93, but had senna survived 94, he'd have made hill look VERY ordinary.

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