[DTM] Why there is no good solution for DTM's dilemma

[DS"]

Here's another thought of mine:


Why doesn't the ITR double down on their idea of a world championship? I remember when the WTCR was launched, it was only supposed to be run for two or three years. Then, a new WTCC with Class One regulations was supposed to launch. There were some rumours that Mercedes and Hans-Werner Aufrecht were involved with it - HWA in particular as revenge, as he was replaced by Gerhard Berger as the head of the ITR. Berger himself also debunked those rumours, stating that he wasn't cooperating with the FIA in that matter.

But what do we have now? DTM is close to dying, no one besides BMW and perhaps the remaining Audi teams are interested in racing in Germany or Central Europe. At the same time, WTCR isn't doing well either. Now it's still more expensive to run Class One cars all over the world than TCR. But if the ITR and FIA can come up with a) a reasonable cost-plan for a class one series and b) a reasonable long-term plan to go Hybrid and eventually all-electric, maybe some manufacturers will bite. Volvo was close to entering DTM in the mid-10's, but decided against it, because they were still running naturally aspirated V8s back then. Maybe they're willing to enter a world championship that will align with their brand vision in the long term.

Honda could be another candidate. While they ruled out any other form of racing besides Formula One and Super GT for now, a WTCC, where they could run the same cars as in Super GT, could be interesting for them as well? Maybe even Audi could be convinced to stay with class one, if it means contesting for a world championship.

A world championship with BMW, Honda, Volvo, maybe Audi, maybe even those Aston Martins, may not save DTM, but could save class one racing? If anyone could talk to Jean Todt about it, it's Gerhard Berger. Maybe he has already talked to him, who knows.

[Matt K]

Well, the idea seems quite good and actually could fill the place that is now taken by ill DTM and WTCR championships. Let's be honest, DTM seems a great product but is too expensive, especially for 'only German' championship, while WTCR is cheap but no one is excited about it (well, okay, I don't know that but even on this forum it's visible it's not particularly popular). Combining DTM's product (enhanced and made cheaper) with WTCR global reach seems a fantastic idea. The big question is - could there be any interest in it in these, difficult times?

[S griffin]

The problem is, leaving behind your original roots is something that doesn’t always end well. Make progress by all means, but don’t go too far above your station. Stick with what you know where you can.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by DS"

Here's another thought of mine:


Why doesn't the ITR double down on their idea of a world championship? I remember when the WTCR was launched, it was only supposed to be run for two or three years. Then, a new WTCC with Class One regulations was supposed to launch. There were some rumours that Mercedes and Hans-Werner Aufrecht were involved with it - HWA in particular as revenge, as he was replaced by Gerhard Berger as the head of the ITR. Berger himself also debunked those rumours, stating that he wasn't cooperating with the FIA in that matter.

But what do we have now? DTM is close to dying, no one besides BMW and perhaps the remaining Audi teams are interested in racing in Germany or Central Europe. At the same time, WTCR isn't doing well either. Now it's still more expensive to run Class One cars all over the world than TCR. But if the ITR and FIA can come up with a) a reasonable cost-plan for a class one series and b) a reasonable long-term plan to go Hybrid and eventually all-electric, maybe some manufacturers will bite. Volvo was close to entering DTM in the mid-10's, but decided against it, because they were still running naturally aspirated V8s back then. Maybe they're willing to enter a world championship that will align with their brand vision in the long term.

Honda could be another candidate. While they ruled out any other form of racing besides Formula One and Super GT for now, a WTCC, where they could run the same cars as in Super GT, could be interesting for them as well? Maybe even Audi could be convinced to stay with class one, if it means contesting for a world championship.

A world championship with BMW, Honda, Volvo, maybe Audi, maybe even those Aston Martins, may not save DTM, but could save class one racing? If anyone could talk to Jean Todt about it, it's Gerhard Berger. Maybe he has already talked to him, who knows.

According to this (in German, run through your favorite translator), none of the Japanese manufacturers has space in their budget for DTM right now. I'd guess that that pretty much applies to a World Championship as well, especially with all the uncertainty caused by Covid 19.

I still think Berger's best hope is to get BMW to run privateer teams and then somehow get Audi or maybeToyota with some old Lexuses to supply some of their cars to privateers for a Class1-field of 10 or so cars. If they can find another ten or so cars for a secondary class (TA2, GT3, whatever) they can at least put the series into some kind of holding pattern and gain time in which to decide about the long term future.

[Matt K]

Yes, as for Super GT manufacturers the case seems definite - neither of the three is willing to go to DTM. I can't see any hope for DTM survival with Class One. The option to run customer BMW, Audi, maybe some Lexus or Nissan programs may seem conceivable on paper but first, I can't see customers having budgets allowing them to do so, and second, this could - if somehow possible - be only an interim idea.

[S griffin]

Yes I can see the series running customer cars as a stopgap. Of course DTM is king of motorsport and if it goes, there is nothing to replace it. Nothing can replicate the success it has had, despite troubled times in it’s existence

[PawUloN]

An idea I came up for fun.
So GT3 is popular, right? It works, but with BoP and aids, both of these were portrayed as against the image of DTM, but you'd have to live with BoP.
Second point, DTM is about "touring cars" (even if they are way separated from anything you can buy), so a front engined cars that resemble road cars, but not supercars.
So let's take all front engined GT3 cars for now, rip out the aids, leave BoP and you have somthing for your first season of new DTM before you have new cars built.

GT3 regs say, that the car cannot be based on a 4 door model (or one that has an 4 door option, I'm not sure). So let's homologate, for DTM, cars that are based on models that can be 4 doored (3-series, C-class etc.). Or even, they have to be 4 door versions and go back the the DTM of 2004 with saloons. Bam, GTS3 : Grand Touring Saloons. Just build a GT3 car, but not based on M6 but on M4 Gran Coupe instead.

[S griffin]

Ex driver Manuel Reuter is saying the series has made the same mistake as the ITC in focusing too much on engineering and bringing the costs up

[rich07]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Ex driver Manuel Reuter is saying the series has made the same mistake as the ITC in focusing too much on engineering and bringing the costs up

It’s the same issue Supercars are facing atm

[DS"]

Originally Posted by PawUloN

An idea I came up for fun.
So GT3 is popular, right? It works, but with BoP and aids, both of these were portrayed as against the image of DTM, but you'd have to live with BoP.
Second point, DTM is about "touring cars" (even if they are way separated from anything you can buy), so a front engined cars that resemble road cars, but not supercars.
So let's take all front engined GT3 cars for now, rip out the aids, leave BoP and you have somthing for your first season of new DTM before you have new cars built.

GT3 regs say, that the car cannot be based on a 4 door model (or one that has an 4 door option, I'm not sure). So let's homologate, for DTM, cars that are based on models that can be 4 doored (3-series, C-class etc.). Or even, they have to be 4 door versions and go back the the DTM of 2004 with saloons. Bam, GTS3 : Grand Touring Saloons. Just build a GT3 car, but not based on M6 but on M4 Gran Coupe instead.

I doubt that manufacturers will effectively build two different cars for one set regulations. And if we exclude rear-engined cars, manufacturers like Porsche and Audi will be ruled out anyway.

Though the idea of an unrestricted GT3 series has its charm, there are many disadvantages. First of all, the costs are likely to escalate in such a scenario. If manufacturers even commit to such a ruleset. The trend goes into decreasing the own development work in favour of spec parts, i.e. LMDh. Another big issue, as has been stated before, is the sheer amount of GT3 series in Europe and Germany. In the worse case, we may end up with a scenario similar to the CART/IRL split in the mid 90's. We'd have two series battling for the same fans, tracks, sponsors, manufacturers and so on. A war, where there'd only be losers.

[Matt K]

Originally Posted by DS"

I doubt that manufacturers will effectively build two different cars for one set regulations. And if we exclude rear-engined cars, manufacturers like Porsche and Audi will be ruled out anyway.

Though the idea of an unrestricted GT3 series has its charm, there are many disadvantages. First of all, the costs are likely to escalate in such a scenario. If manufacturers even commit to such a ruleset. The trend goes into decreasing the own development work in favour of spec parts, i.e. LMDh. Another big issue, as has been stated before, is the sheer amount of GT3 series in Europe and Germany. In the worse case, we may end up with a scenario similar to the CART/IRL split in the mid 90's. We'd have two series battling for the same fans, tracks, sponsors, manufacturers and so on. A war, where there'd only be losers.

I agree. Maybe the best solution would be to unite DTM and ADAC GT Masters so that the best part of both championships remain, like cars, accessibility from GT Masters and name, heritage and 'sprint' races from DTM.
Although I know it's impossible of course. ADAC and ITR would never work together and I doubt Ratel and his organisation would be too pleased about watching their platform being absorbed by DTM.

[helgi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Ex driver Manuel Reuter is saying the series has made the same mistake as the ITC in focusing too much on engineering and bringing the costs up

Too much on engineering? He's joking, right? Or do they believe that those motorised standardised advertising billboards have any tiny bit of engineering onboard?



The more they talk about "engineering" the more I think that astronomical budgets were just for marketing reasons. Or salary in this PRESTIGIOUS and GLORIOUS UBER series were "a bit" too high.


Old DTM had much engineering - that's a fact. Looks like Herr Reuter has stuck in the Past.

[uesugi kenshin]

The more they talk about "engineering" the more I think that astronomical budgets were just for marketing reasons. Or salary in this PRESTIGIOUS and GLORIOUS UBER series were "a bit" too high.

Spot on !! of course there are people on here that think that DTM is the king of motorsports

[NaBUru38]

DTM has been Germany's premier tin-top series for decades. TCR, GT4 or Trans-Am regulations wouldn't fit the prestige.

[S griffin]

Exactly. Even in times of trouble it's been the top motorsport series in Germany to follow. There's nothing too wrong with the current specification of cars, just need to bring the costs down. It wouldn't be the same if they completely changed the format. Other series in Germany with different specifications can be good series in their own right. They don't need to compare themselves with DTM, that's always gonna be top of the tree

[hondafan37]

I published this in the hypercars thread but I think it is also appropriate to publish it here.

"DTM Considering Uprated GT3s Or LMDh In Survival Plans"

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...val-plans.html

[Matt K]

GT3 is a better option than LMDh, even though the latter would be quite interesting, I don't think it suits 'sprint racing.' Btw discussion about GT3 is in DTM 2020 thread

[Juntos]

LMDh cars won't be ready before 2022. What will do Berger in the between?

[Matt K]

He could make a break. But still re-launching DTM in 2022 with LMDh wouldn't be certain, I think. And I think these cars are not suitable for DTM. And Berger wouldn't like to make a break, too.

[S griffin]

I see no point in giving it a break, because it might be harder to get it back if they do. And I don't think LMDh is suitable for the series, the series needs to keep as much as the tin top specification as they can

I'm sure Berger is doing his best and has got some good ideas, but he needs to make sure that he can bring in enough manufacturers and have a stable series, which is easier said than done. Maybe it's time for a big committee to help run it

[DS"]

So Berger basically wants to go full-on DRM. Though DTM cars are already prototypes, while LMDh could actually be a cheaper alternative. Maybe a few years down the line, customer cars become available, sort of like the Porsche 962. And even with the demise of the DRM in the mid-80's, Germany had a relatively healthy sportscar scene up until the end of the decade. Maybe this could work out in the end, but it has to be a feasible concept for independents. I can't see BMW or Audi a works teams providing more than four prototypes each to the grid.

But when the cars aren't available until 2022, can't DTM just invite LMP2 and DPIs for 2021? Pair them with the Class One-BMW and the remaining private Audi and you could get a fairly decent and balanced grid. Again, the DRM did something similar in 1982, where they basically allowed everything that four wheels: Group 4, Group 5, Group 6 and Group C.

Though LMDh is still better than going GT3, even in modified form. It'd be just CART vs IRL all over again.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by DS"

So Berger basically wants to go full-on DRM. Though DTM cars are already prototypes, while LMDh could actually be a cheaper alternative. Maybe a few years down the line, customer cars become available, sort of like the Porsche 962. And even with the demise of the DRM in the mid-80's, Germany had a relatively healthy sportscar scene up until the end of the decade. Maybe this could work out in the end, but it has to be a feasible concept for independents. I can't see BMW or Audi a works teams providing more than four prototypes each to the grid.

But when the cars aren't available until 2022, can't DTM just invite LMP2 and DPIs for 2021? Pair them with the Class One-BMW and the remaining private Audi and you could get a fairly decent and balanced grid. Again, the DRM did something similar in 1982, where they basically allowed everything that four wheels: Group 4, Group 5, Group 6 and Group C.

Though LMDh is still better than going GT3, even in modified form. It'd be just CART vs IRL all over again.

I like the idea of an anything goes placeholder ruleset for 2021 and 2022. But I think if they go to a prototype ruleset, they'll need to do it as a multiclass series to get a full grid. I think LMP3 would be the best value for money option for a privateer focused class, as a second division will inevitably get less attention than the top class so it will be hard to justify LMP2 budgets. Also, there are already a few LMP3s in Germany, e.g. with Frikadelli Racing, which could perhaps be enticed to run in the series.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

While Super-Touring was and is seen as the pinnacle of national touring car racing in many European countries, for the Germans – much like the Australians – it was just not good enough.

Yeah, maybe. But the Australians who thought that are the last people to listen to.

Originally Posted by Speed-King

That the cars lack much of the visual and aural appeal common to all previous iterations of DTM is not the only aspect in which TCR fails to provide the legitimacy needed to be considered a suitable set of regulations for DTM.

Like supercars in Australia, the spectacle, "visual and aural appeal", of DTM is overstated.

If there are common characteristics between German and Australian domestic motorsport. Then I'd say Germans might want to tone down the contemptuous attitude towards 2 litre, fwd cars. I suspect it's the reason the DTM is in a hole.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Which IMO sucks, but us auto racing fans are a minority among the car buying public.

Which is exactly why you shouldn't listen to them.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

So if my understanding of BTCC history is right. In order to gain wider mainstream attention and avoid criticism and confusion over class racing, they transferred from Group A to the 2 litre cars (Subsequently known as Super Touring) for the 1991 season. This primarily meant fwd cars.

From then on, without even trying, certainly by the 1995 season, they attracted up to 10 manufacturers per season. An average of 7.9 factory team for the whole super touring decade from 1991-2000.

10 manufacturers is more manufacturers as what supercars and post-Group A DTM has attracted in the history of both series.

STW was an "alternative" touring car series in Germany. It couldn't trade off the history of the DTM. Yet had attracted more manufacturer support than the history of post-Group A DTM.

Between Australia Super Touring and TCR, it has attracted more manufacturer support than the whole history of the supercars organisation.

Yet there's a 12 page thread of supposed motor racing fans wondering what the next set of touring car regs should be?

[GusGasfuss]

My preferred rule-set would be a mixture of BTCC/NGTC and the italian Superstars-Series.


I think, DTM should stand for real touring cars, not GT or Prototype-Silhouettes.

Like it was in 90s (and later with STW). Cars, you could buy for the street, but heavily tuned, with wings and Bodykits etc.


I think STW was very good in case of racing, but it became also very expensive soon.
As every new rule-set.


DTM rules are already too expensive, and that helps not to get better racing.


Of course i understand, that manufacturers don't want to lose, so it is always wanted, to have a rule-set, that gives possible wins to all entrants.

But for that it is not needed to charge 80 mio. €....


Hope, they can solve this problem. Class 1 is not solution (it is also too expensive in Japan, but these guys can't pull out of the series without losing their face).