ARDS Questions

[Terrible-Tones]

Great news - both my wife and I passed our ARDS on Tuesday. Of course we are over the moon.

The questions were, as everyone said, fairly straightforward as long as you know flags. Luckily we both got 100%

We had great fun with the instructors who did push quite hard and get you to refine your technique. Toe and Heel was mentioned and you had to demonstrate an understanding but not necessarily do it. I tried and it went horribly wrong as the Exige is not ideal for me in that respect. it was made clear when your test laps were so we both chose to back off a little to stay on the tarmac - a fact both our instructors noticed and appreciated.

THerefore a successful day and Nina is just waiting to get her licence through the post - mine? - well typical - it turns out there may be a medical issue and I am having to sort it with my GP (who is wholly supportive) and the MSA (whose rules are wholly ambigious on this particular issue) but I actually do not have that much confidence the licence will be granted. Well have to see.

Anyhow - thank you all for the sound advice.

[JohnD]

T-T,
There's another thread here about getting a licence with a significant eyesight problem. The OP got hios licence, without a lot of hassle, but a lot of stressing on his part. Eyesight may not be your problem, but it shows that the medical test is like the ARDS - it's to see if you are safe to yourself and others, not that you are Hawkeye Harris.
John

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by JohnD

T-T,
There's another thread here about getting a licence with a significant eyesight problem. The OP got hios licence, without a lot of hassle, but a lot of stressing on his part. Eyesight may not be your problem, but it shows that the medical test is like the ARDS - it's to see if you are safe to yourself and others, not that you are Hawkeye Harris.
John

Hi John

Thanks for that - no it is not eyesight - I have better then average eyesight fortunately. It is actually a medical problem that under most circumstances would rule out a licence. However I did talk to my GP (and MSA who are a bit ambiguous) at length before applying and the GP was fully supportive (and was a circuit Dr so knows his stuff). His view is that I am less likely to suffer a problem with this condition than an average person and it is now fully controlled and has been for more than 10 years. He has written a letter for the MSA's medical lady. I hope, and I am sure that she will, take a balanced view.

Of course this is all about risk assessment - I would under no circumstances wish to put my own, or more importantly, other peoples, lives at risk so I will be guided by the medical opinion. This is why I was honest and upfront about it - I get the sneaky impression that a small minority probably lie on the applications/renewals!

We will wait and see - what is nice is that my wife passed so the car will not be wasted and here licence is on it's way

[Tim Falce]

T-T, congratulations on passing, do you want to reveal what the condition, is it something that may affect any of us in the future?

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by falcemob

T-T, congratulations on passing, do you want to reveal what the condition, is it something that may affect any of us in the future?

Yeah - no probs - it is Epilepsy. Shock and Horror. I probably know that this will create a storm - but unless you have it is is difficult to understand and easy to pass judgement. There are actually over 40 different types and 100's of differing symptoms. It is really a catch phrase for a lot of anomylous neurological events.

In my case I have only had 3 episodes all within 1 month, well over 11 years ago, and very likely related to tremendous stress at work. The stress was taken away and I was given a low dose of some very simple drugs. The problem simply vanished overnight and I have not had any symptoms for 11 years or more. I have a full unrestricted car licence and I am a driving instructor - so the DVLA are happy!

My GP puts my risk of having a fit at probably LESS than an average person (which is 1-200 as it happens) and certainly less than a smoking male at 60 having a heart attack. He also says that my risks are far less than someone who has come off medication. He is in full support of the application. I also have full support of the series I want to race in and also of the drivers in that series (I bothered to check first!)

The MSA initially said it would be OK but now appear to be saying that you have to be fit free AND off medication for 10 years - but this is NOT what it says in the BlueBook! Grrrrrrr

Whatever, I am sure they will consider it fairly - and at least I hope I went around my application in an open and honest fashion. I checked with GP first, then MSA and even the Series guys. I also checked with Silverstone when I did my ARDS and everyone is OK. I cannot see that I can do anymore than that.

If ever I had a problem (which would be totally unexpected) my licence (and DVLA licence) would go straight back with no fuss or bother as I am not into risking lives. However if the licence was not granted I would have to feel it would be blanket discrimination - particularly if they would grant a licence to someone off medication who potentially may be MORE at risk!

Sorry for long reply but it is a little complicated.

Cheers for everyone in helping us with our ARDS - all your advice was really valuable.

[PTRACER]

The guy who runs my car is in a similar situation T-T. Had a heart related problem that was solved by an operation, he passed his medical with flying colours, but the MSA wanted extra confirmation that the heart problem wouldn't cause problems and wanted ANOTHER medical examination done just on his heart and a letter from his heart specialist at the hospital.

He hasn't bothered with all of that because he's had a licence for 30 years, but I think if he gets this second opinion and the letter, he'll be probably be OK'd with his licence and that may happen with you.

[Al Weyman]

The only contact I have ever had with epilepsy was when I was window fitting and was called off a job in an emergency to go to another site as the fitter had had an epileptic fit whilst up a ladder and had fallen off and been badly hurt and the house was open to the elements. Not being negative and I really do not know enough about the condition or various degress of it to pass judgement but this incidence was serious enough and I hate to think what would happen behind the wheel of a race car if someone had an attack.

The thing about racing is it can be very stressful and I have known of more incidents of guys having heart attacks and problems at the track than actually hurt in accidents especially if you are of the sort that can get stressed easily and if this is triggered by stress I would be concerned. Me of course has been known to fall a kip on in the marshalling area but thats another story and probably due to Narcolepsy! .

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

The only contact I have ever had with epilepsy was when I was window fitting and was called off a job in an emergency to go to another site as the fitter had had an epileptic fit whilst up a ladder and had fallen off and been badly hurt and the house was open to the elements. Not being negative and I really do not know enough about the condition or various degress of it to pass judgement but this incidence was serious enough and I hate to think what would happen behind the wheel of a race car if someone had an attack.

The thing about racing is it can be very stressful and I have known of more incidents of guys having heart attacks and problems at the track than actually hurt in accidents especially if you are of the sort that can get stressed easily and if this is triggered by stress I would be concerned. Me of course has been known to fall a kip on in the marshalling area but thats another story and probably due to Narcolepsy! .

Hehe I knew it would trigger controversy!! Al thanks for your input it is appreciated as I am happy to talk about my "thing". I really do not wish to be disrespectful when I say your reaction is so common but as you admit not so informed perhaps? - I am also a race marshal and like you do not get stressed out on track with cars coming at me at 100mph+! Ok the sort of stress that triggered my (unconfirmed I might add) attacks was the work type stress - building up over a long long period, very long hours and very poor management etc. In fact I have had two more periods of stress since then (again work related and also a big insurance claim) - these had no effect whatsoever and I dealt with them in an above average way apparently - according to my GP amazingly I just kept on smiling! (oh and won both issues in the end!)

It is not triggered by adrenaline type stress or short period stress. In fact this sort of stress can be positive and is why we race. If it was stressful in a negative way you simply wouldn't bother to do it!

You are quite right - a fit as described (called a Grand Mal) would be a disaster behind the wheel of a race car - as it would a normal car on a public road, or up a ladder. If I had a fit as a marshal in the middle of the track this would also be a problem I suspect! However I hold a full unrestricted DVLA licence, I climb ladders (despite being terrified of heights - short term stress!), and I am a registered track marshal. I live a completely normal life with no issues. I am not constantly falling over in spasms nor do I even think about the condition on a daily basis. For all intents and purposes it simply is not there and has not been for 11 years.

It is down to odds, EVERYONE can suddenly have a fit at any time for any one of a million reasons. 1 in 200 people have some form of epilepsy (there are 40+ types) - therefore Al, you have a 1-200 chance of having a fit behind the wheel of your race car. Do you now believe that you should surrender your race licence? Probably (and quite rightly) not I suspect. My GP describes my odds as at least equal to yours or even longer as my "condition" is known about and dealt with - I have the layer of protection the drugs afford. There is more chance we may both have a heart attack as you say! Also a disaster behind the wheel I would think?

I think the problem is is lack of knowledge about the condition - some only associate it with someone rolling around on the floor in spasms. This is not actually the case - it can take many forms. If you have ever found yourself not concentrating on what you are doing and not remembering what you have just done then this is likely to be a form of epilepsy - it is really common but does not cause concern - bet you did it at school and got accused of "daydreaming" and in fact most kids "suffer" from it. Indeed my "episodes" were not the "traditional foaming at the mouth spasm type fit" at all, as, I suspect, many people have just ASSUMED them to be when I have mentioned the word. All 3 times I knew something was going to happen about 3 mins before so I was able to put myself in a safe position (fortunately all 3 were at home)and no harm was done. Basically there is a period of time that I simply just don't remember, normally about 10 mins and then hazy for a couple of hours afterwards - like having had a few too many at the pub. It is possible (but sadly not witnessed as I was alone all 3 times) that I was fully functional in that 10 mins and it is simply a memory issue.

I hope this dispels some myths about the condition - I find when I talk to people about it they generally have preconceived (and probably incorrect) ideas about it.

Hopefully the MSA medical guys will know all this anyway and make an informed opinion. As I have said - there is no way I would risk someone elses life or limb - so I will take advice on the matter from the proper sources. However if my risk is the same as yours then I do not see why I shouldn't hold a licence and I am sure you would agree? - To not grant a licence under these circumstance would strike me as prejudiced and maybe considered exactly that under the Disability Discrimination Act.

Sorry for long post - cheers for listening - hope that people have a better understanding now. As I said - complicated heh?

[Tim Falce]

I always think the people most at risk of causing any health related incident on the roads or track are those of us who have never been diagnosed and not being monitored for any health problems, we are the unknown quantity.
I was told by a sufferer that the time limit was 2 years from any epileptic incident and you were deemed clear and safe to drive so god luck T-T and I wouldn't bother if you were on the track at the same time as myself.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by falcemob

I always think the people most at risk of causing any health related incident on the roads or track are those of us who have never been diagnosed and not being monitored for any health problems, we are the unknown quantity.
I was told by a sufferer that the time limit was 2 years from any epileptic incident and you were deemed clear and safe to drive so god luck T-T and I wouldn't bother if you were on the track at the same time as myself.

Thanks for the vote of confidence - indeed the drivers in the series I am hoping to race in feel the same way and have said they have no issues. As I understand it a smoker has a higher risk of a heart attack than me of having a fit - but I bet there are a lot of smokers who are drivers? However Al is quite right in raising concerns - which I hope are addressed by the medical guys. If I had concerns I would not even be thinking of applying but I have no concerns myself as I know how I was when it happened which is a world away from the person I am now.

In my case it was 1 year and I got my DVLA licence back (10 years ago). I am not sure if that is "standard" or it depends on condition or Dr's etc. When I first had a problem I sent my licence back to the DVLA immediately without being asked or prompted. They were very appreciative and wrote a lovely letter saying that they wished all people were that responsible. Likewise I hope that it is seen that I have at least shown at least some responsibility in my attitude to the Nat B application?

Interestingly I can hold a sprint licence (see bluebook) with no problems or questions - presumably there must be a difference between having a fit at 90mph on a sprint track - crashing and mowing down a few spectators and marshals and killing myself, than having a fit on a race track and crashing and possibly taking out some fellow drivers and killing myself that way? Odd when you think of it in those terms!

[Al Weyman]

Well you have convinced me! A mate of mine was a chaffuer and had to give it up because he suffers from Type 1 diabetes and has had little turns. I witnessed one at Silverstone last year funny enough but we stuck a glucose tablet in his mouth and sat him down and he came around in the end but it had me worried for a bit. I seriously don't feel he should have a race licence (he doesnt) because if that happened at the wheel it could be disasterous also he only has a limited driving licence now renewable bi anually I believe and cannot drive professionally.

[JohnD]

TT,
I fear that your otherwise good arguement for safe driving by treated epileptics is not improved by the "1 in 200" case.

A recent traffic accident survey compared raods with different trafic densities, from 10,000 to 120,000 vehicles/24hrs. The latter is 5000/hour. If "1 in 200" of those drivers had epilepsy and had a fit ......... But they didn't.

"In the U.S., 86 drivers per year died as a result of crashes caused by seizures from 1995-1997, ...............Overall, about 44,000 U.S. drivers per year were killed in accidents during the same period."
http://www.webmd.com/epilepsy/news/2...-car-accidents

In the UK, in 1997, 638 drivers were counselled bya neurologist after diagnosing seizures or other unexplained episodes of loss of consciousness.
See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7...?holding=ukpmc

I've no argument with the figure as an estimate of the incidence of epilepsy, but that is not the same as saying a person without that diagnosis " has a 1 in 200" chance of having a fit at the wheel.
There is plenty of evidence that a person with a long history of being fit-free are pefectly safe drivers. In fact in the US, where 86 died after they had fits while driving, some states require drivers to be fit-free for as long as three MONTHS!

Good luck! I hope the MSA see sense.
John

[Terrible-Tones]

[QUOTE=JohnD;2446646]TT,
I fear that your otherwise good arguement for safe driving by treated epileptics is not improved by the "1 in 200" case./QUOTE]

Hi John

Quite! Very Interesting figures - not sure where my GP got the 1-200 from but that is what he quoted. Wonder what the incidents of unexpected heart attacks are? Of course what I haven't factored in is the likelyhood of having a fit at a particular time and place. Say the 1-200 is correct but that, as you, says means anytime day or night. If you race 10 x 20 min races in a season plus 10 x 20 mins Q then you have been on track for 400 mins (7 hours in a year) then that likelyhood that you will have a fit in that time is massively reduced (dependant on the trigger, of course, but that is not a factor in my case). I haven't done the math but I bet ithe odds reduce to something like several 10,000's to one. Your odds are increased I would think on the road simply because you drive more but still much less than 1-200 as you do not drive 24/7. Given the American figures (44000/86) that would make the odds of anyone, since presumably all were unexpected, having a fit a surprising 511-1 chance actually! (is that the correct math?)

I think my point is that - whatever the odds - mine are apparently the same - or perhaps even better, than a majority of average people - like you or Al. Therefore, in my humble view, I do not see this as being a problem. Of course - I am biased

I am glad my comments have provoked a very thoughtful and interesting discussion about the subject - I of course take on board peoples concerns and totally understand them. Regards the US study just wondering how they knew if a driver had a seizure if they are now dead? Especially in a case where there were no passengers?

If worse comes worse - I have my Marshaling and I always enjoy watching you chaps. Of course my wife has passed her licence and I can go along with her as part of our little team so I can be involved that way. Not quite the same though!

Could always try Sprinting - but the car isn't set up for that!

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Well you have convinced me! A mate of mine was a chaffuer and had to give it up because he suffers from Type 1 diabetes and has had little turns. I witnessed one at Silverstone last year funny enough but we stuck a glucose tablet in his mouth and sat him down and he came around in the end but it had me worried for a bit. I seriously don't feel he should have a race licence (he doesnt) because if that happened at the wheel it could be disasterous also he only has a limited driving licence now renewable bi anually I believe and cannot drive professionally.

Gosh that is really bad luck for him, I hope he improves/gets better soon - crossed fingers. I agree re having a race licence in these circumstances - perhaps it is unpredictable and uncontrolled at present which of course represents a danger.

Funny though - Bluebook states quite clearly that he can apply for a licence in these circumstances and it at least will be looked at. They seem to have a flat ruling - a sensible one perhaps - for epilepsy (unless it is over ten years). But why the difference?

Of course, unlike your friend, I do not have a limited DVLA licence and I am able to drive professionally - I am a driving instructor (just finishing off the very last bit of training to be precise).

[Suze]

Really interesting posts, I don't know that much about epilepsy but your posts were enlightening. Good luck TT! Fingers crossed for you.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Suze

Really interesting posts, I don't know that much about epilepsy but your posts were enlightening. Good luck TT! Fingers crossed for you.

Thanks Suze, and everyone else, for your support, understanding and contribution - whatever happens you have all made me feel better

[Col_Rugby]

Well done to both of you on passing your ARDS. fingers crossed with the MSA granting your licence.
does this mean you'll be giving up coming on the bank or does it mean extea weekends when you're racing?
What series you hoping on racing with? LoT? or is that a silly question?

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Col_Rugby

Well done to both of you on passing your ARDS. fingers crossed with the MSA granting your licence.
does this mean you'll be giving up coming on the bank or does it mean extea weekends when you're racing?
What series you hoping on racing with? LoT? or is that a silly question?

Hi

No - I am a Marshal who happens to (want to) race not a race driver who marshals. Think I am down for 20 + days this year so not giving up on the bank by any means.

As for series - Lotus LOL - way too expensive - couldn't afford to buy the car, the conversion or to prang or even scratch it.

We have a Mk1 MR2 on order - should be here in a couple of weeks - much cheaper. The series is the Red Dragon Race and Track Club Mr2 Mk1 Challenge and the Nippon Challenge. We are hoping (as are our sponsors!) that our first meeting will be at Silverstone on 6th and 7th June - I think it is the MSVR meeting. Originally I was planning to drive but with all the hassles I don't think the licence will be sorted in time - even if it is granted anyway. So it is likely to be Nina driving. I would offer to come on the bank but I think I am better off supporting her in her first meeting. We actually only expect to do 3 meetings this year.

The car will be recognizable in bright green with twin black central stripes #74. It will also be carrying BMMC stickers and I have had a couple of Silverstone Marshals Team shields made for the spoiler. My wife uses her maiden name which is Fountain - so if anyone is on the bank that day please give her a cheer. Anyone is free to come and say Hi in the paddock - you won't be disturbing us at all.

Of course neither of us expect to be competitive - especially as the car is specified as road legal so will be carrying a bit of a weight penalty. However as it is road legal I will use it for travelling to Marshaling days as well so I hope to use it for the BARC meeting in mid May.

[Al Weyman]

A friend of mines father died at the wheel of a heart attack fortunately he did not take anyone out with him. Same as Gerry M (RiP) the great man managed to pull that old Chevy up safely before he passed on to that big circuit in the sky.

[Mr.Jingles]

I think the problem is that it's only a 1 in 200 chance of having a form of the condition - on top of that, you need to consider the chance of an incident (minor or Grand Mal, or something in between) occuring over a given period of time, and how this can vary due to incidental medication and lifestyle effects etc etc.... this is why 'tagline' statistics are so badly misunderstood.

There was a classic one on BBC the other day - eating overcooked beef increases your chance of catching a particular type by colon cancer by 5-10%. Sounds awful doesn't it? Have a guess how many people that translates to in the whole of the UK over a year...

Just under one person, as there are less than 10 cases in any one year.

Anyway, back on topic - best of luck T-T. you've done everything by the book and above board and thats all that can be asked of anyone.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Mr.Jingles

is why 'tagline' statistics are so badly misunderstood. Anyway, back on topic - best of luck T-T. you've done everything by the book and above board and thats all that can be asked of anyone.

Thank you for the support - just collected the letter from the Doc so it can all go off to the MSa tomorrow and we'll see what transpires. I'll let everyone know negative or positive so we have a base line in case anyone asks in the future.

Yes in effect statistics mean not a lot - if you toss a coin 10 times statistics with a large sample base show that it should come out heads 5 times and tails 5 times I would think. Of course there is nothing to actually say that you may well toss tails 10 times in a row at any given time.

[JohnD]

Regards the US study just wondering how they knew if a driver had a seizure if they are now dead? Especially in a case where there were no passengers?

TT,
I think the 1 in 200 is the incidence in the population of epilepsy, many of whom like you are well controlled and never fit. About 1 in 2000 a year present with new symptoms that may be epilepsy.

The American study used the diagnosis entered on death cerificates - which doesn't quite answer your question. You can read an abstract of the paper by Seth et al at: http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/63/6/1002

John

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by JohnD

TT,
I think the 1 in 200 is the incidence in the population of epilepsy, many of whom like you are well controlled and never fit. About 1 in 2000 a year present with new symptoms that may be epilepsy.

The American study used the diagnosis entered on death cerificates - which doesn't quite answer your question. You can read an abstract of the paper by Seth et al at: http://www.neurology.org/cgi/content/abstract/63/6/1002

John

Hi John

Yeah, think you may be right there - sort of fits in with the 0.2% they quote - which if I have got this right equates to a 500-1 chance.

Thanks for the link - interesting - I do wonder how they know that a dead person had a seizure - but I guess they know what they are doing!

If I read this right (might need your help here!) it is saying that I have a 0.2% chance, or risk, of having a fit behind the wheel of a car in everyday driving? Therefore to my simple brain the risk of having a seizure whilst racing will be lower still simply because I am on the race track a LOT less than driving everyday? This sort of backs up my case - if I have understood it correctly.

Anyway - got the GP letter of support (which is quite strongly worded) and sent the application off today - we'll see what happens.

[Mr.Jingles]

Assuming all being equal T-T, yes. But then there are higher stresses and bloody pressures, different blood sugar levels. electrolytes etc etc.... not being a doctor I wouldn't want to speculate on exactly how much an effect there will be, but there must be one.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Mr.Jingles

Assuming all being equal T-T, yes. But then there are higher stresses and bloody pressures, different blood sugar levels. electrolytes etc etc.... not being a doctor I wouldn't want to speculate on exactly how much an effect there will be, but there must be one.

Perhaps - but I would imagine it depends on the exactly type of epilepsy you are supposed to have. In my case it appears to have been very long term stress associated with work and indeed the symptoms I showed are entirely consistent with simply that. In fact despite two EEG's there was absolutely no proof I had epilepsy and the Dr's could not find any concrete evidence. Both my EEG's stayed resolutely normal. - The neurologist simply took the worst case scenario and prescribed the tablets (as they rarely have side effects) just in case - of course you are then labelled with this all encompassing term that actually covers a multitude of sins. This is the absolute b****r - it may well be that I am not epileptic in the true sense at all! It is a damned complicated one - not a straightforward case at all.

I have done other extreme sports (eg Scuba - Yacht racing and others including flying as it happens - but I haven't taken my licence yet.) with no problems at all. I do not get affected by short term adreneline related "stress".