Hans Question

[greenamex2]

My question is, in a 80's saloon car running on road tyres am I ever likely to experience the G force in an accident that this device caters for?

[jminsh]

Originally Posted by Denis Bassom

My question is, in a 80's saloon car running on road tyres am I ever likely to experience the G force in an accident that this device caters for?

Yes you could

I seem to remmember the poor chap who lost his life at Silverstone last year, in a Mini (new type) wasn't traveling very quickly when he hit the barrier near Becketts. It was reckoned if he'd of been wearing a Hans device he'd of still been around.

[ss_collins]

my point is that more people have been 'saved' by hans than were ever killed by BSF.
I think more independant research is needed, and the device should be redesigned for more gradual deceleration of the skull and perhaps lower cost materials - are they really the best for the job?

Dtype 38 said it right it should be reccomended no mandatory. If any doctor was lecturing anyone about the use of hans then I'd ask the doctor to show me any research he had.

[midgetman]

I think SSC has hit the nail on the head. Motorsport News this week is thumping on about making HANS mandatory in all forms of motorsport because Prof Sid Watkins says so. Then in the article it talks about Sid smoking cigars - surely statistically a much more likely cause of death than a motor racing accident?

Think about it, my race car is actually slower than my road car, has fuel at lower pressure, only has 30 people around me all (mostly) going the same way and covers less miles. By the law of averages aren't I far more likely to have a fire/impact/injury incident in my road car on the M4 or a local country lane than on a race track? But I don't need overalls/helmet/HANS on the road.

No, if MN wants to campaign for anything it should campaign to tighten ARDS course so that there's less accidents in the first place, or disqualify Touring Car drivers who IMHO encourage reckless/dangerous driving, or move spectator bankings away from corner apexes - all of which would reduce accidents and enhance safety and is better than treating the symptoms.

As El Presidente (nearly) said: "Tough on accidents, tough on the causes of accidents"

Max, playing devil's advocate again
Put on tin hat and sits down below parapet

[greenamex2]

As SSC said, I would like to see the proper evidence before deciding which camp to pitch in.

However I will be getting a HANS compatible helmet at the autosports show, just in case, and if I need to replace my harness I'll be having a chat with my roll cage man about compatible mounts.

Just leaves a perfectly good 300 quid seat to throw away!

[Al Weyman]

On the cost side, they (HANS, at least) also recommend you replace it every five years.

How on earth do they arrive at these figures, say it is stored in a dark dry place with the helmet (that is also lifed!) and used a dozen times does there product deteriate so badly it has to be replaced along with the helmet. And again if it is a fact of the carbon fibre detoriating over time (seems to last OK in jet engine fans) then again why cant they be made out of steel which surely would last indefinitely and be cheaper to produce.

Dennis I bought a nice comfortable AVG lid from Ralley Design, fully FIA compliant and with Hans holes fitted for aroung £170 and I think its very good value.

I tell you what guys its Christmas, lets save up all that polystyrene stuff that comes with the prezzies then when we get in the car get yer mate to stuff all that in with you and you will be as safe as houses, won't be able to see where you are going but so what if you hit something you wont get hurt

And you made some very good points there midgetman.

[greenamex2]

Bubble wrap. You can see through it and if you are bored you can pop it!

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by Chris Y

This is also troubling. What if you're one of the many people who don't own a car, but hire one - what happens when you change cars, or you do a multi-driver race in someone else's car?

Good point, and you're right that if you drive cars of significantly different seat angle and shape around the shoulders, your HANS could well be uncomfortable or possibly even ineffectual. If you do endurance that could be a serious problem, but for sprinting I'm not sure its so much of an issue. Lets face it, when we get in someone else's car, the seat is probably the wrong width, the steering wheel in the wrong position, the toe and heel spacing wrong, etc., etc. But we don't go adjusting it all for a couple of races, we just put up with being uncomfortable.

On that very issue of hiring a race car, or at race schools, I was interested in the solution at Disney World Oval in Florida. I did a lesson there in their "Winston Cup" cars while on family holiday and they had helmet teathers fitted, but didn't use HANS devices. The teathers hook directly to the roll cage, and you get a pull loop that fits around your harness buckle which quick-releases the teathers from your helmet in an emergency (I assume the mechanism is as well tested and trouble free as a safety harness buckle). Seemed like a neat and cost effective solution to me.

[Richy_Rich]

Originally Posted by dtype38

I was interested in the solution at Disney World Oval in Florida.

I dunno, sounds a bit Mickey Mouse to me.

(sorry)

[dtype38]

Damn... knew I shouldn't have mentioned where it was

[Chris Y]

I think the idea of tethering your head to the roll cage is pretty frightening actually - there are a lot more 'what if' questions involved, particularly if the seat moves in an accident...

[ss_collins]

erk...

[greenamex2]

I think the bigger issue is if your body moves but your head doesn't!

[dtype38]

Beg to disagree. The "issue" is suddenly meeting another car, or the armco, head on at a closing speed of 50-80mph. You've got the deformable front end structure, you've got a proper seat bolted in properly, you've got a good harness mounted properly. So everything stays where its supposed to be.... except your head which now weighs umpity up hundreds of pounds and only your neck muscles to hold it in place. Say hello basal scull fracture! Personally I'm not too worried if my helmet teathers are attached to a HANS collar, the roll cage, or the diff... just so long as my lid doesn't try to go and say hello to my right front tie-rod.

I'd say that if your accident is so sever that its ripped your seat out and snapped your harness attachments, then where your helmet teathers were attached to is a bit academic..... Just my honest opinion, no supporting data, sorry.

[Eddy V]

There is no really need to buy new 3-2-3" belts, the old ones work okay. You can buy the new, but all the guys running in my team here in Germany still use the old belts. No problem. They complained the first few practices and races about the system, but not a sound afterwards.
One of the negative things about Hans is the problem of loosing side view, you can't turn your head that well any more.

Seats can be a problem, but for sprints it is not going to be that bad if you are a bit uncomfy.
For a saloon you'd need a 20 or 25° Hans.
Single seaters 25° to 30°. Historic ss 40°.

If you go to a good retailer, they'll have seats as well. Bring your helmet, put it and the Hans on and try it how it feels.

I'll join Max now.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Chris Y

I think the idea of tethering your head to the roll cage is pretty frightening actually - there are a lot more 'what if' questions involved, particularly if the seat moves in an accident...

If the harness is attached to the roll cage, chassis or both then the seat isn't going to move far unless the harness gives way, in which case as dtype says, it's all a bit academic.

[dtype38]

Originally Posted by Chris Y

I think the idea of tethering your head to the roll cage is pretty frightening actually - there are a lot more 'what if' questions involved, particularly if the seat moves in an accident...

So why not develop a "touring car" style seat with quick release teathers built into the helmet surround so that it can't move forward out of the protection of the side loops.

My point here, really, is that there seems to be more than one way to protect against bsf, but in this country the MSA only seem to be persuing one option. Why is that? If there is a lack of comparative data on bsf with and without a HANS device, I bet there's even less to compare different ideas on methods of head restraint.

[retro_msport]

I was just thinking about Ken's reply when this popped into my head.....

Could a pair of straps not be stiched into the harness shoulder straps?
But then i thought ' what if the body moves in the harnesess' the neck would then be stretched, same as if they are attached to the cage or seat. I have always thought the HANS was a brillient step forward in driver protection, and after thinking about the suggestions from others and my own, the HANS wins hans(d) down... it can move with the driver, the belts can slide over it, and yet the head is still tethered to the shoulders.

So the only alternitive i can think of is a 'rigid spine' thingie....

A thing that is worn under the drivers overalls and runs the length of the spine, it extends above the collar and the head tethers are attached to this, the ' rigid spine' is strapped around the body (torso and abdomen) thus imbolising the spine, in the event of an accident even if the seat fails the spine is held in position with the head. Removing the driver from a burning car without the risk of further spinal damage is one benifit on top of the head restraint. Of course these would have to be made of a thermo setting plastic and be able to cure into shape after emersing in hot water.

Downsides...... (1)Driver changes could be fun if your spine cant move... (2)and comfort.(3) cost.. havnt a clue what this would be

With 2 I only have limited movement in my spine, in fact most of the time i wear a belt with spring steel bars either side of my lower back and i crawl around cars all day. So getting in and out of the car may not be so bad.

What do you reckon.... stop drinking now and turn the computer off or have i found an alternitive?

[MGDavid]

Jason we know one 'could' - but that wasn't what was asked. Denis said: am I ever likely to experience the G force in an accident that this device caters for?
'Likely', NOT 'could'
BTW I can tolerate execrable spelling but it's 'have been' not 'of been' perr-lease !

[midgetman]

>>>>>One of the negative things about Hans is the problem of loosing side view, you can't turn your head that well any more.

.....thereby causing more accidents?

>>>>>>>>made out of steel which surely would last indefinitely

Tell that to my MG bodywork

>>>>>>>>>> have always thought the HANS was a brillient step forward in driver protection,

Couldn't agree more, it's just so damned expensive. Cost/risk analysis again. What am I more likely to hurt myself by? BSF or sclerosis (sp?) of the liver? Or be knocked off my push bike by some idiot talking on a mobile phone while he drives?

Think the HANS is a terrific design, simple and effective, but designed to solve a problem that doesn't occur very often at our level. A bit like wearing a lifejacket on a cruise liner - the ship COULD sink at some time but how likely is it? Helmets I can relate to, they take a big whack in any accident. Overalls protect against more than just flame. But HANS?

Seems like the FIA abdicating its responsibility for safe circuit design. Treating the symptoms, like I said. Take walls off race tracks, you don't stop so quickly, the head won't move forwards so violently. QED.

[midgetman]

Whoops. Did of course mean "cirrhosis"(sp?) not "sclerosis"

[dtype38]

Retro... I'm not convinced on the spinal plank thing. We already have a thing which keeps us the right shape, its called a seat. If attaching your head to the seat, as well as strapping the rest of you to it, wouldn't work then why would a spinal plank?

[retro_msport]

Ken.. Neil Hasler had a correctly fitted seat in his Mighty Mini, with the correct belts etc and his seat broke when he speared the wall at Brands. Thats just one case of a seat deforming or breaking.. with the spine thing it wouldnt matter if the seat broke, your spine is still held rigid... and again, if the cars on Fire the Marshal can pull you out without him worrying that he is going to cause more damage to your spine.. in theory.

Thats the thing i'm worried about with the attachment of the head to the seat/cage as has been suggested, if the seat breaks your not attached anymore.. and if your t-boned and the seat moves inboard but the cage dosnt... your neck is stretched.

It was only an idea... lots of sports use spinal protectors.. just wondering if it could be a alternative, I still say the Hans is the best at the moment but it has it limits of protection... and again costs

[Chris Y]

Originally Posted by falcemob

If the harness is attached to the roll cage, chassis or both then the seat isn't going to move far unless the harness gives way, in which case as dtype says, it's all a bit academic.

I've seen an accident where the seat moved forwards 2 inches. Admittedly, it was bolted direct to the floor of the car, but the floor just ripped, and I think this was with reinforcement plates. Would have been nasty, I suspect, if the driver's head had been tethered to the roll cage!

I was going to suggest the alternative, which was tethers in the seat, but it seems Ken has beaten me to it I think that's a very good idea. Seats don't often break, and generally speaking you remain attached to them, even if you end up moving a little (due to belt stretch), or the seat moves (chassis deformation), you still end up in roughly the same place as your head, which is useful.

It also means that drivers who 'share a ride', can also share the same tethers in the seat, assuming similar height, build, etc. All you'd need is the posts in the helmet.

The spinal thing would worry me in terms of movement. I've analysed the way I drive, and have noticed that I tend to bend my back a bit when cornering (admittedly I have a crap seat). I just think that would be a little uncomfortable.

However, doesn't the Hutchens device involve similar thinking? Straps around the torso, linked to helmet straps? It's been a while since I've seen one.

[andy97]

OK folks, thanks for all the comments and the PMs etc - its interesting that HANS still provokes lots of comment.

I am convinced that its a major contribution to safety and I am going to get one before next season. I think the price is exhorbitant but I have decided that it will be cheaper than broken neck and, given my lack of skill and propensity for going off, I think that its a good investment! Still, £600+ for a HANS and another £200 for a transponder means that, there's a couple of races that I might otherwise have entered that I can't afford to enter this year.