LMP2 vs. LMP1 (merged)

[DanJR1]

in the various le mans series, shudnt the LMP2 have a fair chance of overall victory?

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by DanJR1

in the various le mans series, shudnt the LMP2 have a fair chance of overall victory?

My understanding is that IMSA tries to set the engine horsepower and restrictor sizes so that there is a gradation in speeds. The LMP1s are supposed to be the fastest, LMP2s slightly slower and then GT1 and GT2. Things have gotten a little weird this year in ALMS, but LMS seems about right. A few years ago, the Astons and Corvettes were routinely beating the LMP2s in ALMS so IMSA slowed GT1s down a bit and speeded up LMP2s. Porsche has taken full advantage of this and now are faster than the LMP1s at some tracks. IMSA will probably slow LMP2s down for next year.

DK

[SALEEN S7R]

In short, no. Not unless there was a lot of rain, in which case the lighter cars may well reduce the performance gap to the bigger LMP1's. On a dry circuit however the fastest LMP1's will almost always be quicker, with perhaps 1 exception, Monaco. If there was ever a LMS race on the Monaco GP circuit then perhaps there is a chance the lighter LMP2's could out perform the slightly heavier LMP1 cars. IMO. In the ALMS things have been slightly differnt until recently with IMSA using performance balancing to make the top LMP2 cars competitve on tight and twisty road courses, now however IMSA have moved their rules in line with the ACO and as you can see Audi are back at the top.

[jhansen]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the ALMS/IMSA have pegged the P2 restrictors back to ACO standards Audi have yet to win a race.

But I think it's true, in general, the P1 cars should have the advantage (or at least they are supposed to). However, there are some conditions where the P2 cars can be quicker. In the ALMS, the circuits play to the P2 cars a bit. However, in the LMS we have no factory P2 cars. Tough to know how Penske might fair in the LMS for instance.

[SALEEN S7R]

True, although next year the LMP1 cars should be signifcantly faster with the news that the LMP2 class cars will have their weight increased by 50kg.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by DanJR1

in the various le mans series, shudnt the LMP2 have a fair chance of overall victory?

It is not the desire of the ACO to have LMP2's competitive with LMP1's, so no they shouldn't have a fair chance of overall victory. As is often the case, the ACO didn't get the rules right, and we have LMP2's winning in North America.

Hard to say what would happen in Europe, as there aren't the teams in LMP2 with the same type of budgets, equipment or drivers as there are in North America. It certainly would be interesting to see Penske take on Europe's best, as well as Dyson and the Acura's.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by dxk1

My understanding is that IMSA tries to set the engine horsepower and restrictor sizes so that there is a gradation in speeds. The LMP1s are supposed to be the fastest, LMP2s slightly slower and then GT1 and GT2. Things have gotten a little weird this year in ALMS, but LMS seems about right. A few years ago, the Astons and Corvettes were routinely beating the LMP2s in ALMS so IMSA slowed GT1s down a bit and speeded up LMP2s. Porsche has taken full advantage of this and now are faster than the LMP1s at some tracks. IMSA will probably slow LMP2s down for next year.

DK

IMSA ultimately doesn't set the rules, the ACO does. IMSA does sometimes allow for modifications that allow for competitiveness within a class, but doesn't change class rules. (Note, I don't consider delaying implementation of the ACO LMP2 restrictor as such, if you do, consider it as an exception).

IMSA didn't slow down the Aston's and Corvette's due to them beating LMP2's, and they never beat them on lap speed pace anyway. Aston's and Corvette's received additional weight for beating the 3:55 lap time at LM, but not for anything else, and the weight ballast was *rewarded* by the ACO, not IMSA.

LMP2's were not adjusted upwards in speed as a class either.

The ACO has already announced they will add 50kg (or was it 75kg?) to the LMP2 class in 08'. There has been no communication from IMSA as to whether they will adopt this yet or not.

[Aysedasi]

My simplistic view is that the LMP1 cars should be the cream of the prototype crop. They should not be competing on equal terms with LMP2 - that wouldn't make sense to me.....

[Adam43]

I suppose the question is do you want to have overall wins achieved by two different methods (approximately big and powerful verses small and nimble). Or do you want two different classes, primary and secondary.

If the second class is meant to be cheaper I feel this naturally lends itself to the latter of the of those ideals.

And if the general rules can have variety within one class then you don't need to force the different methods approach so much.

I don't have a problem with LMP2 winning overall as an unusual event, but I don't think it should be the norm. Speaking less generally the situation is confused a little because the races in America are a little different to Le Mans, where even if Porsche was there it would be unlikely to challenge the top LMP1 cars.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

If the second class is meant to be cheaper I feel this naturally lends itself to the latter of the of those ideals.

Maybe that should be more of the focus. As it is, Porsche have made a pretty complex (and quick) race car from the 'secondary' class rules.

[bil588]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the ALMS/IMSA have pegged the P2 restrictors back to ACO standards Audi have yet to win a race.

But I think it's true, in general, the P1 cars should have the advantage (or at least they are supposed to). However, there are some conditions where the P2 cars can be quicker. In the ALMS, the circuits play to the P2 cars a bit. However, in the LMS we have no factory P2 cars. Tough to know how Penske might fair in the LMS for instance.

It isn't fully back to ACO standards. Check the IMSA website.

That was two races ago.

McNish spun twice at Lime Rock within ten minutes. The # 2 R10 had a crash that required it to go behind the wall.

http://www.imsaracing.net/2007/event...tes/page08.pdf

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by bil588

It isn't fully back to ACO standards. Check the IMSA website.

The normally aspirated LMP2's are completely at ACO spec.

http://www.imsaracing.net/2007/alms/...in%2007-15.pdf

[bil588]

but not turbocharged I-4s

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by bil588

but not turbocharged I-4s

Indeed, but rather irrelevant in a discussion about the competitiveness of LMP1 vs. LMP2.

The cars of relevance in this discussion are all at ACO specifications.

[FLGTFAN]

The ironic part is that the ACO's "mistakes" with the rules have created a situation in ALMS where, at the last race at least, the top eight cars finished on the lead lap, at a 1.5 mile road course, after 2:45. Sometimes the unintended result is the the most interesting, eh?

[TWK]

I shudder to think what would be going in this ALMS season if the LMP2 entries were not able to compete with the LMP1s.

[chewymonster]

1 goes before 2

as in first and second

as in GT1 is faster than GT2

as in what's the point of numbers and rules if you don't use/enforce them

[Zurbert82]

Originally Posted by FLGTFAN

The ironic part is that the ACO's "mistakes" with the rules have created a situation in ALMS where, at the last race at least, the top eight cars finished on the lead lap, at a 1.5 mile road course, after 2:45. Sometimes the unintended result is the the most interesting, eh?

Which race? Lime Rock is 1.5 miles but only 3 cars finished on the lead lap..

[Spyderman]

I remember having had this discussion when I first started on the forums.
I also recall it being very heated and down right rude! (Not on this Forum)

I don't share the view that P1 and P2 should not compete.
I'm much more in favor of a grading system that allows two different concepts to achieving the same goal - outright victory!

The current system is too contrived for my liking (remember, this is my opinion)

T hose that don't share my opinion, are quick to claim that I just think this way because "Porsche are in P2 and I want them to win overall".

My sincere reply to that is: If Porsche were in P1 and were getting beaten by a P2 car, the LAST THING that I would want, is for the P2 car to be castrated into submission, and neither would I want a rule break for the P1's.



To me, winning should be achieved through hard work, dedication, skill, and a demonstration of superiority; Not through rules alone.


If Porsche were to win under these conditions, it would be a hollow victory.
I would be far more interested in seeing if Porsche could overcome the odds through their engineering expertise.


Proof of this, is that I don't agree with the FIA's "success weight" system, and any victory that the 997 gets over the F430 because the latter is ballasted is meaningless in my eyes.

[The Badger]

Couldnt agree with you more .....

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I remember having had this discussion when I first started on the forums.
I also recall it being very heated and down right rude! (Not on this Forum)

I don't share the view that P1 and P2 should not compete.
I'm much more in favor of a grading system that allows two different concepts to achieving the same goal - outright victory!

The current system is too contrived for my liking (remember, this is my opinion)

T hose that don't share my opinion, are quick to claim that I just think this way because "Porsche are in P2 and I want them to win overall".

My sincere reply to that is: If Porsche were in P1 and were getting beaten by a P2 car, the LAST THING that I would want, is for the P2 car to be castrated into submission, and neither would I want a rule break for the P1's.



To me, winning should be achieved through hard work, dedication, skill, and a demonstration of superiority; Not through rules alone.


If Porsche were to win under these conditions, it would be a hollow victory.
I would be far more interested in seeing if Porsche could overcome the odds through their engineering expertise.


Proof of this, is that I don't agree with the FIA's "success weight" system, and any victory that the 997 gets over the F430 because the latter is ballasted is meaningless in my eyes.

i second that, the grading system you talk of between LMP1 and LMP2 in my mind is much like the old LMP900 (panoz LMP-01, audi R8, dome S101 and dallara SP1) and the LMP675 cars (MG lola EX257, zytek 04S, reynard 2KQ and pilbeam MP91).

and the grading system with lighter car's with less power produced brilliant racing and even more brilliant car's, the zytek 04S was imo complete proof of that, to my memory it was the only LMP675 car to ever truly compete at the thick end of LMP900.

of course some may argue about the lola B01/60 AER's that dyson ran in 2004 and 2005 but the simple fact was they didnt quite have the speed of the R8 in both years at most tracks and never had the reliability, particularly when you look at how bullet proof the 04S was in 2005.

i would be all in favour of LMP2 car's competing for the overall win, just give them different reg bodywork from LMP1, it was rather hard at LM apart from the sound and livery to tell a LMP1 car from a LMP2 car, particularly between the B07/10 and B07/40 lola's and the zytek 07S1 and 07S2.

[juicy sushi]

however, the zytek never beat the R8 before the r8 was beginning to be restricted by additional rules. the dyson ran lola beat the joest-run audi's head-to-head in its original form. it also was the first to win and the only one to consistently do so...

[FLGTFAN]

Originally Posted by Zurbert82

Which race? Lime Rock is 1.5 miles but only 3 cars finished on the lead lap..

Sorry, my bad. Mid-Ohio is 2.4 miles.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by FLGTFAN

Sorry, my bad. Mid-Ohio is 2.4 miles.

where eight cars didn't finish on the lead lap either.

[Hugewally]

Originally Posted by chewymonster

1 goes before 2

as in first and second

as in GT1 is faster than GT2

as in what's the point of numbers and rules if you don't use/enforce them

Which rules aren't being uesd/enforced?