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Old 19 Mar 2018, 03:56 (Ref:3809030)   #271
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Old 19 Mar 2018, 07:24 (Ref:3809040)   #272
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Originally Posted by carbsmith View Post
The races that count for having an international spec car are over and they made a mockery of said international spec. It's abundantly clear that any hope of a common top class between IMSA and WEC in 2022 to allow teams a chance at the major American enduros along with Le Mans is an utter pipe dream on the behalf of the ACO given the protectionist attitude that's been shown.
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You can't be serious right? Have you forgotten what happened when ESM went over to WEC, for example?

I think there are amazing teams on both sides of the Atlantic but this just seems like a lot of denial about the imbalance between normal P2s and DPi cars. To just broadly dismiss a team like United to further your own agenda is disingenuous at best.
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Laughing at the comment re European and American teams.


It's always good to stop by here on IMSA side for laughs, that is true

Just heads up before certain/certain parties come in mocking as they do, ALMS was my favorite series in the world but even in it's hayday with RS Spyders and HPDs challenging the Audis and gang I would have never made absurd, outrageous fanboy comments about the quality surpassing the European side by 100-0, whether that's in teams or machinery

Now, as for numbers, when the stock P2s run by "worse teams" bail out eventually once they got tired of always having the negative spectrum for the races that actually matter, leaving this series with a 10 car grid for the headline class just like in DP before the fusion, then let's see how much boasting there will be...

Last edited by Chiana; 19 Mar 2018 at 07:52.
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Old 19 Mar 2018, 08:07 (Ref:3809046)   #273
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How many p2 teams won last year? I think it's obvious that the dpi's are favored in bop. It's apparent they're faster at the least. I don't buy it that it's all the team either. Whether they get more negative bop or not is to be seen, but right now they are the only ones capable of winning. I was glad to see Mazda up there at the front but there's always something that holds them back from the win. Maybe they'll get there this year.
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Old 19 Mar 2018, 09:55 (Ref:3809059)   #274
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Regarding BoP levels...

http://results.imsa.com/Results/18_2...by%20Class.PDF
^ Fastest laps of the weekend over all sessions.

Notice the fastest LMP2 car is in sixth, nearly (but still less than) a full second off of the fastest DPi. But notice as well that...

1) The quickest DPi is 0.4s faster than the second quickest - this speaks volumes for the effects of setup.

2) That LMP2 was faster than one of the Acuras and both Mazdas - this speaks volumes for how the big the gap actually is.

Clearly, the DPis have a BoP advantage, but it's FAR closer than it was this time last year, and it is feasibly possible that a particularly good team could still find a setup and driver pairing to match the DPis, longshot though that may be.

In other words, although only one LMP2 driver managed to do so, the fact remains a lap time was posted that was right in the middle of the DPis. That simply wouldn't be possible if the BoP was as far off as is being claimed.

Put simple, the BoP needs work, but it's not the utter disaster many believe it to be.
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Old 19 Mar 2018, 10:50 (Ref:3809066)   #275
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Slightly off topic, but how do most people rate the chances of the IMSA/WEC double header at Sebring 2019 actually going ahead? I thought there were representatives from the ACO and FIA there on the weekend to discuss the logistics etc so I suppose we will have to be patient. I am hoping to make a holiday in Florida next year for the St Pete Indy/ Sebring double and an IMSA/WEC double header could be the decider. If this is covered in another thread please excuse my lack of diligence.
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Old 19 Mar 2018, 12:22 (Ref:3809085)   #276
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Originally Posted by FormulaFox View Post
Regarding BoP levels...

http://results.imsa.com/Results/18_2...by%20Class.PDF
^ Fastest laps of the weekend over all sessions.

Notice the fastest LMP2 car is in sixth, nearly (but still less than) a full second off of the fastest DPi. But notice as well that...

1) The quickest DPi is 0.4s faster than the second quickest - this speaks volumes for the effects of setup.

2) That LMP2 was faster than one of the Acuras and both Mazdas - this speaks volumes for how the big the gap actually is.

Clearly, the DPis have a BoP advantage, but it's FAR closer than it was this time last year, and it is feasibly possible that a particularly good team could still find a setup and driver pairing to match the DPis, longshot though that may be.

In other words, although only one LMP2 driver managed to do so, the fact remains a lap time was posted that was right in the middle of the DPis. That simply wouldn't be possible if the BoP was as far off as is being claimed.

Put simple, the BoP needs work, but it's not the utter disaster many believe it to be.
A single bonzai lap doesn't say much though, you need to consider averages correctly if you want to build useful data, for example best 5 lap avg, 10 lap avg, 30 lap avg etc which filters out unreliable data which can be extremely contextual.

Last edited by Ospi; 19 Mar 2018 at 12:28.
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Old 19 Mar 2018, 13:16 (Ref:3809092)   #277
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Cheap and nasty graph showing the averages:



Result being that the quickest P2 overall was 0.8s slower on average (on all 3 metrics) than the mean of all DPi and close to 0.4 slower (20 lap avg) than the slowest DPi. These numbers filter out the slower drivers and only compare the best each car has to offer so they paint an interesting picture when it actually counts in the race.

I'm sure IMSA will adjust accordingly and we'll have some P2's in amongst the action throughout the season though but it's clear imo that adjustments do need to be made if they're genuine on the performance parity.

Last edited by Ospi; 19 Mar 2018 at 13:34.
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Old 19 Mar 2018, 14:15 (Ref:3809100)   #278
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Originally Posted by champcarman View Post
Slightly off topic, but how do most people rate the chances of the IMSA/WEC double header at Sebring 2019 actually going ahead? I thought there were representatives from the ACO and FIA there on the weekend to discuss the logistics etc so I suppose we will have to be patient. I am hoping to make a holiday in Florida next year for the St Pete Indy/ Sebring double and an IMSA/WEC double header could be the decider. If this is covered in another thread please excuse my lack of diligence.
All outward press says this is happening as scheduled, but there are some folks who are skeptical.

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Cheap and nasty graph showing the averages:



Result being that the quickest P2 overall was 0.8s slower on average (on all 3 metrics) than the mean of all DPi and close to 0.4 slower (20 lap avg) than the slowest DPi. These numbers filter out the slower drivers and only compare the best each car has to offer so they paint an interesting picture when it actually counts in the race.

I'm sure IMSA will adjust accordingly and we'll have some P2's in amongst the action throughout the season though but it's clear imo that adjustments do need to be made if they're genuine on the performance parity.
That is a good representation of the individual cars abilities. It reminds me of the GTEins diagrams that show individual driver performance as well. That 77 Mazda was flying!
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Old 19 Mar 2018, 14:58 (Ref:3809114)   #279
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Cheap and nasty graph showing the averages:


Adding drivers of the calibre of Rast and Jarvis has really transformed Mazda, nearly as much as dumping Speedsource. The #55 would be right there too probably if Pigot was as fast as Ticknell and Bomarito.

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...and they got beaten - twice - by that "vanity side project" with Jon Bennett as one of the drivers.
You can discount Bennett this weekend really as he had his driving done before half distance and so before the spate of safety cars that allowed CORE to get back the two laps they lost while he was driving. So United were really beaten by Romain Dumas and Colin Braun. Which is reasonable.
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Old 19 Mar 2018, 19:43 (Ref:3809178)   #280
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Originally Posted by Ospi View Post
A single bonzai lap doesn't say much though, you need to consider averages correctly if you want to build useful data, for example best 5 lap avg, 10 lap avg, 30 lap avg etc which filters out unreliable data which can be extremely contextual.
You need to consider average lap data when trying to account for exactly which matters affected race performance, not when you're trying to gauge how close the BoP actually is.

The outright top speed over a single lap at the limit speaks VERY loudly about how close the BoP is. If a car can be within 0.1s of the next car over a single lap, then the cars are very reasonably balanced.

But if the BoP is bad, then the slower cars will never be close to the leaders at all. Not over one lap, two laps, five laps, or whatever you want to count. The absolute fastest race laps of all the cars over the weekend speaks the loudest over whether or not the BoP is close enough than any average speeds over multiple laps can. There are too many variable effect things over multiple laps, but the fastest lap can be taken as an example of the potential maximum performance of the car.
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Old 19 Mar 2018, 20:10 (Ref:3809181)   #281
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Maybe we need to remember 2014, when the LMP2 cars could get close to or even be faster than the DPs on a flying lap, but in the race once the DPs got in front they often pulled away because of better top speed which gave them better ability to work traffic.

Same thing with the Audi R10 vs LMP2s in the ALMS. Only better fuel mileage saved the day a lot of times for the Penske Porsches.
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Old 19 Mar 2018, 20:21 (Ref:3809185)   #282
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I also wonder how close the teams actually were to the allowed BoP maximums. And let's face it, the factories can more easily afford to blow an engine than the privateers; so the latter will likely blink before the former in terms of dialing back the settings in order to preserve reliability.

Also, I wonder if Mazda was doing the same thing to an extent, and getting that increased mileage out of it as a benefit.

And though I don't see it happening, it would be very interesting to see the Penske Oreca trotted out again to get a straight-up performance comparison.

When I looked over the page, I think all the Prototypes had their fastest lap between a 1:49.0 and a 1:51.0; so that's not exactly a massive disparity.

Is there a listing of the trap speeds to have a look over that?
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Old 19 Mar 2018, 20:45 (Ref:3809191)   #283
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I also wonder how close the teams actually were to the allowed BoP maximums. And let's face it, the factories can more easily afford to blow an engine than the privateers; so the latter will likely blink before the former in terms of dialing back the settings in order to preserve reliability.

Also, I wonder if Mazda was doing the same thing to an extent, and getting that increased mileage out of it as a benefit.

And though I don't see it happening, it would be very interesting to see the Penske Oreca trotted out again to get a straight-up performance comparison.

When I looked over the page, I think all the Prototypes had their fastest lap between a 1:49.0 and a 1:51.0; so that's not exactly a massive disparity.

Is there a listing of the trap speeds to have a look over that?
http://results.imsa.com/Results/18_2...Qualifying.PDF

Fastest for each car through Q.
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Old 20 Mar 2018, 00:36 (Ref:3809237)   #284
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Slightly off topic, but how do most people rate the chances of the IMSA/WEC double header at Sebring 2019 actually going ahead? I thought there were representatives from the ACO and FIA there on the weekend to discuss the logistics etc so I suppose we will have to be patient. I am hoping to make a holiday in Florida next year for the St Pete Indy/ Sebring double and an IMSA/WEC double header could be the decider. If this is covered in another thread please excuse my lack of diligence.
Neveu, Fillon, Beaumesnil and other senior WEC/ACO personal were all there, even said bonjour to them when they visited turn 17 to have a close look trackside (giving them the opportunity to mock the Mini's in Conti Challenge bouncing their way all the way thru the turn!) They did plenty of laps in several IMSA cars and spend quite a bit of time on the deck of the Weathertech VIP tent right before turn 17. Never saw them in Scott Atherton's presence though. The discussions were scheduled for Sunday (yesterday) I believe.

I'm fairly convinced the double-header will be on next year, just not sure about a lot of details/issues that need to be ironed out.
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Old 20 Mar 2018, 01:23 (Ref:3809243)   #285
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the factories can more easily afford to blow an engine than the privateers; so the latter will likely blink before the former in terms of dialing back the settings in order to preserve reliability.
The Gibson teams don't have any particular say in the matter. The engines are leased and they're stuck with the engine mapping Gibson sets to make them run long enough to make the lease price the ACO set viable. That's the whole reason DPis with bodged in stock blocks are able to be faster at all.
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