Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Wind tunnels often do not correlate to what happens in the real world

They absolutely do. It's the real world unlike CFD, the reason F1 teams have problems with correlation is because they are not allowed to use full scale models. As long as it's a full scale car and the blockage ratio is low, it's as good as the real world and far more controlled than a runway.

Originally Posted by Tourer

The info sourced out of a wind tunnel can be replicated more effectively in real world situations by good engineers who allow for a range of factors to be covered

If this is true why does TCR and BTCC homologation use a full-scale wind tunnel?! The idea that the ATCC organisers know something that other touring car categories do not, is with all due respect, dubious.

[GTRMagic]

Mr Whincup Ain’t Happy

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

They absolutely do. It's the real world unlike CFD, the reason F1 teams have problems with correlation is because they are not allowed to use full scale models. As long as it's a full scale car and the blockage ratio is low, it's as good as the real world and far more controlled than a runway.

If this is true why does TCR and BTCC homologation use a full-scale wind tunnel?! The idea that the ATCC organisers know something that other touring car categories do not, is with all due respect, dubious.

OK - we're going to disagree clearly - I'm just going from my experience working on teams in F1, Champ Car, NASCAR, Supercars plus a few other things - don't know what your background is but if you know better, all good but I don't agree with you.

Oh & the "more effectively" point relates to Supercars in Australia (which of course is what this topic, thread and discussion board is all about) - IF Supercars was based in a country with ready availability of suitable wind tunnels, maybe it would take a different approach - but it isn't and it doesn't.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Mr Whincup Ain’t Happy

On the surface the disqualification does seem to be a bit petty.

[S griffin]

First meeting of the season and already controversy happens. Seems to be a very minor breach of the rules, but sadly someone else felt the need to protest it

[GTRMagic]

I would be interested to see the safety test for all drivers to get out of their Gen3 race cars inside the FIA/CAMS allotted timeframes…

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by S griffin

First meeting of the season and already controversy happens. Seems to be a very minor breach of the rules, but sadly someone else felt the need to protest it

I'd say the bigger controversy is the drivers feel like they're no allowed to be honest about the new cars.

Certainly doesn't help when Supercars produce the "show" - Skaife and Yates absolutely ripped SVG post race, where as in the NRL (where FOX does the media) the commentators may have been more sympathetic to SVG

[Ares]

Remember when the motor racing was commentated by just a sports commentator form the TV network, they would get in an ex-driver or someone for some comments on the day. Next weekend he was doing football or the netball or swimming.
The Gen 3 looks fragile, bodywork looks very light and moves around with very little impact. Tyre bundles will love them " Black flag lose body work" Gen 3 or GT3 without the aero. Rear bumpers seem a weak spot.

Question, has the Gen 3 chassis been crash tested? I'm pretty sure the Gen 2 cars were crash tested. I Think I can remember reading something about it at the time. Didn't sound like it handled the crash as well as expected from MS comments about the new engine cradle not holding up. Cradle looks very light for the job it is intended to do.

[bluesport]

Poll.

https://www.speedcafe.com/2023/03/13...en3-delivered/

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by Ares

Didn't sound like it handled the crash as well as expected from MS comments about the new engine cradle not holding up. Cradle looks very light for the job it is intended to do.

No different to gen2. There were multiple changes made to those cars to distribute loads better in crashes as more data was collected.

Quite why people expect Gen3 to be a perfect car in every respect from day 1 is beyond me. I can't recall any serious racing car where that was the case.

[S griffin]

I think Gen3 is a nice upgrade so far. Definitely safety is as good as before. So far it's been a good start to the new era. It's settling in nicely

[Ares]

I don't think anyone is expecting there not to be any teething problems, but in saying that there is an expectation for the new car to hit the ground running. This is not Supercars first rodeo, and the teams are touted as the best in the business, up there with the best in the world. Well, that's what Supercars like to tell everyone. With that comes a level of expectation. A little like Boeing building planes. The wing falls off their new plane, that would be way more accepted in 1923 than it would be today. The higher you lift the bar the higher the expectations. Design faults are not teething problems.

Crash test VE in 08. Not a Pace chassis. I'm not sure how you could make a statement that the Gen 3 is as safe as the Gen 2? the Gen 2 is a proven chassis. It sounds like the Courtney car may have a bent chassis from a very no nothing hit. There has been a lot of weight and mass removed from the Gen 3 chassis. Supercars wanted a lighter car, the savings had to come from somewhere. Google it and have a look.

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by Ares

C There has been a lot of weight and mass removed from the Gen 3 chassis. Supercars wanted a lighter car, the savings had to come from somewhere. Google it and have a look.

.

https://www.speedcafe.com/2023/03/16...obust-as-gen2/

Halve the thickness of the bars and suffer the consequence

[Ares]

Probably why you will not buy a spaceframe car from your local dealer. Great racecar platform, until you hit something.

[V8 Fireworks]

Mozzie not happy with engine mapping parity:

My car just really lacks the early throttle pick-up and that’s where I hurt the tyre a lot.

https://www.speedcafe.com/2023/03/17...s-for-mostert/

Not good!

Originally Posted by sizzle

https://www.speedcafe.com/2023/03/16...obust-as-gen2/

It sounds like Edwards is not happy with the change to the front-end design where they have removed the front chassis rails, and replaced it with some crossed over tubing?

Originally Posted by Ares

Probably why you will not buy a spaceframe car from your local dealer.

Most exotic sportscars, apart from McLarens and Alfa Romeo 4Cs, are aluminium spaceframes. It allows for the most production flexibility I suppose. That doesn't preclude fitting relatively conventional chassis rails in the front and rear, however.

[V8 Fireworks]

GM announced yesterday (US time) that production of the sixth-generation Camaro will come to an end next year [production ceasing January 2024], with no immediate clarification on what will replace it in the model line-up.

“While today’s General Motors (GM) news out of the US will have an impact on our racing product, we respect and acknowledge that change is sometimes inevitable," said Supercars CEO Shane Howard in a statement.

“We will continue our strong partnership with GM into the future."

“For fans, the Camaro will continue to proudly represent Chevrolet Racing in the Repco Supercars Championship until at least the end of 2025."

https://www.motorsport.com/v8superca...ing-/10447358/

Camaro confirmed until 2025 despite the road car being cancelled.

[AnnoyedMoose]

Don't get why it's such a big deal if one or even both of the cars isn't being made anymore. The days of people buying cars because they see it on the race track are long gone and these cars have nothing to do with their road counterparts other than the shape.

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

Don't get why it's such a big deal if one or even both of the cars isn't being made anymore. The days of people buying cars because they see it on the race track are long gone and these cars have nothing to do with their road counterparts other than the shape.

Because it takes a lot of work/money to make a safe, fast race car resemble a road car - ostensibly, you'd only do it to advertise the car and it's "sporting pedigree". Not to mention the opportunity to grab some manufacturer sponsor dollars.

Consistency is another factor. You either race cars based on road cars or not - what Supercars will have is a.... "unique" mix of the two

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

Don't get why it's such a big deal if one or even both of the cars isn't being made anymore. The days of people buying cars because they see it on the race track are long gone and these cars have nothing to do with their road counterparts other than the shape.

All that is true but making Supercars a class for historic cars is not a good look or helps it with any credibility outside the tent.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Alan52

All that is true but making Supercars a class for historic cars is not a good look or helps it with any credibility outside the tent.

Don't worry we have 25 years until we have to worry about that.

I also don't get why people who are TCR fans worry about this so much. Many of the cars running around in TCR are old shapes.

Mk7.5 Golf is from 2016, Cupra would be similar age, and I'm sure there's plenty more.

Sure there's a facelifted version of that car around but either way a Camaro you can't buy new anymore is cooler and something I want to see race more than a Lynk and Co you can't buy anyway.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

Don't get why it's such a big deal if one or even both of the cars isn't being made anymore. The days of people buying cars because they see it on the race track are long gone and these cars have nothing to do with their road counterparts other than the shape.

It’s a big deal because Supercars themselves have sold Gen3 to the public on it being market relevant and how the cars look like the road cars.

Supercars stakeholders have also previously said they didn’t want the series to look like a “used car lot” referring to running old unsold models

How long after this year will “Chevrolet Racing” be a thing in Australia running the old Camaro?

[chunterer]

Presumably the commercial guys are working overtime behind the scenes to try and rope in one or two more manufacturers?
Nissan or Toyota I guess are the most obvious targets as both have big v8 coupes they could use and are well known locally?

[AnnoyedMoose]

If the public were that bothered they would be supporting TCR in droves. They're not so whatever the money behind SuperCars might want or say it's irrelevant and just shows how out of touch they are. After all the best selling "cars" in Australia (and most countries) these days are SUV's, 4x4s and pickup trucks. The public doesn't care about cars anymore.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Nissan or Toyota I guess are the most obvious targets as both have big v8 coupes

What?

It seems logical to include the turbocharged six cylinder Nissan Z and Toyota Supra as they are the direct competitors to the Ford Mustang, though the Lexus LC500 or RCF are certainly great vehicles.

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

If the public were that bothered they would be supporting TCR in droves.

Formula 1 is more popular than V8 Supercars in Australia now -- noting the Australian GP with a sellout status that exceeds rival ATCC street races -- and it includes brands like Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Renault, Alpine, McLaren, Aston Martin, Alfa Romeo and Ferrari. Ford will be joining the series in 2026, however.

Even at the Australian GP, grandstands tend to be more full for Formula One sessions than ATCC sessions, for whatever reason -- even though both categories are included in the program and therefore the race ticket.

Originally Posted by Mixer

I also don't get why people who are TCR fans worry about this so much. Many of the cars running around in TCR are old shapes.

At least there are vehicles there for Audi, VW, Alfa Romeo, Peugeot, Renault or Honda enthusiasts to cheer on at all.

The ATCC offers little to engage the enthusiasm of Alfitsis & Tifosi, Honda enthusiasts, Renault enthusiasts etc, unlike Formula One or TCR.

If I was the organiser of the Adelaide 500, I would consider making the ATCC a support category and bringing in FIA WEC as the headline race with a 6 hour race. I imagine hosting fees are much more reasonable than Formula One.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

The ATCC offers little to engage the enthusiasm of Alfitsis & Tifosi, Honda enthusiasts, Renault enthusiasts etc, unlike Formula One or TCR.

Just a pity none of them show up.

It's not far off becoming the GRM show like S5000, which is a concern.

Let's see if they can get more than 20 entries in one of them once they are in a mainland round.