Honda Withdrawl from F1

[E.B]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

surely this new venture is already playing catch up no?

maybe im being cynical but i dont see how RB will be able to compete right out of the box in an area where well established engines manus are frequently made to look foolish.

for me this has to be just a stop gap and they will go back to being customers post 2025 or whenever the new PU arrive.

This.

Re the next PU in 2025/6 I was under the impression that Marko had recently said that aligning with a new manufacturer was their priority, and specifically mentioned positive discussions with Porsche already in this project, and indeed (Porsche) has attended a number of F1 engine working group sessions recently.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Who thinks Toto is silly?!!!

About 50% of F1 fans at a guess because he does not do stuff the way they want. Verstappen to Mercedes would be one example.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

If some people say that Mercedes can claim the Brawn WCC as their own, then maybe we can say VAG is back in F1!

Richard

That only works if they claim the Tyrrell ones too

[Born Racer]

Of course, if they can recruit a load of engine specialists, doing it all in-house and being successful may just work, especially if they have seen there is a very straightforward engine from 2025 and which is heavily restricted in development.

It could also be a lobbying position - as in, we’ve got to run this ourselves now, we’re an important team, don’t overcomplicate the engine regs, please - we need to show off our aerodynamics.

[S griffin]

We’ll have to see who they can recruit. 2025 is a long ahead. They need to concentrate on getting this season done and focusing on next year

[crmalcolm]

Any team not planning for 2025 onwards now, is planning to fail. To be in with a chance of success, the organisation must be developed now.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

We’ll have to see who they can recruit. 2025 is a long ahead. They need to concentrate on getting this season done and focusing on next year

As there is an engine freeze covering 2022-2024, surely the focus will be on 2025?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

As there is an engine freeze covering 2022-2024, surely the focus will be on 2025?

I think the focus is on 2022 first and then 2025. Honda will have power unit upgrades for 2021. So Red Bull will want/need

* Implement the planned Honda upgrades (Honda item)
* Ensure reliability before hand over (Honda item but pressure from RBR)
* Build up proper infrastructure in both technology (equipment, etc.) and also human resources.
* Ensure they go into 2022 with a fully functioning organization that can provide power units as well as the required event level support that the probably have been getting via Honda personnel. This would include behind the scenes technical monitoring (health of power unit, etc.)

Its all doable, but not a trivial amount of work. And while they have likely been working/planning to make it happen, they really only just recently were able to push the real "go" button. Now is where the rubber meets the road a they say.

In parallel to these efforts would be any involvement in 2025+ specification. I suspect that they have a real understanding of the investment they are making now and that is likely to drive a desire to keep doing it inhouse in 2025+. I really hope the 2025+ solution is simple enough and cost effective enough that someone like Red Bull can make it work inhouse. But the success of the work now and success of 2022 is the foundation for 2025 plans.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I think the focus is on 2022 first and then 2025. Honda will have power unit upgrades for 2021. So Red Bull will want/need

* Implement the planned Honda upgrades (Honda item)
* Ensure reliability before hand over (Honda item but pressure from RBR)
* Build up proper infrastructure in both technology (equipment, etc.) and also human resources.
* Ensure they go into 2022 with a fully functioning organization that can provide power units as well as the required event level support that the probably have been getting via Honda personnel. This would include behind the scenes technical monitoring (health of power unit, etc.)

Its all doable, but not a trivial amount of work. And while they have likely been working/planning to make it happen, they really only just recently were able to push the real "go" button. Now is where the rubber meets the road a they say.

In parallel to these efforts would be any involvement in 2025+ specification. I suspect that they have a real understanding of the investment they are making now and that is likely to drive a desire to keep doing it inhouse in 2025+. I really hope the 2025+ solution is simple enough and cost effective enough that someone like Red Bull can make it work inhouse. But the success of the work now and success of 2022 is the foundation for 2025 plans.

Richard

Maybe then the focus should initially be on this year and getting those power unit upgrades implemented, before Honda leaves at the end of the year and the freeze comes into force in 2022? Then as you say, run the 2025+ specification in parallel.

[crmalcolm]

RBR will have finite resources, and where they apply these is key.

What are the likelihoods of success if they load against:

2021 - lowest
2022 - middle
2025 - highest

What impact does loading against each timeline have:
2021 - improves short term, some improvement medium term, minimal long term.
2022 - no short term gain, high medium term, minimal long term.
2025 - no short term, minimal medium, high long term gain.

So their best chance of success, and to sustain it long term, is to prioritise resources to the 2025+ programme.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

What impact does loading against each timeline have:
2021 - improves short term, some improvement medium term, minimal long term.
2022 - no short term gain, high medium term, minimal long term.
2025 - no short term, minimal medium, high long term gain.

So their best chance of success, and to sustain it long term, is to prioritise resources to the 2025+ programme.

IMHO, too simplistic of a view. You can't prioritize on 2025 in a vacuum. Especially if what we are talking about is them building their own power unit in 2025.

Or maybe we are saying the same thing, but in different ways. What I am saying is that if they fail at 2022-4, then they have little chance of 2025 working as a power unit manufacture. As as much as someone can say they should focus on 2025, the reality (and needs) of 2022 can't be ignored.

Richard

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

IMHO, too simplistic of a view. You can't prioritize on 2025 in a vacuum. Especially if what we are talking about is them building their own power unit in 2025.

Oh I agree - it's a very simplistic view.
My point is about the spread of resource - I.e. prioritise resource on 2025+, whilst keeping enough resource on 2021 to retain their WCC standing and developing capacity during the 22-25 timeframe.

Not an easy task to manage, but if someone is able to project manage it successfully they will prove to be one of F1's finest assets.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Oh I agree - it's a very simplistic view.
My point is about the spread of resource - I.e. prioritise resource on 2025+, whilst keeping enough resource on 2021 to retain their WCC standing and developing capacity during the 22-25 timeframe.

Not an easy task to manage, but if someone is able to project manage it successfully they will prove to be one of F1's finest assets.

I do think they have the management team to make it work. Not as together as Mercedes (I think Wolff might be Mercedes secret weapon), but they should be able to make it work.

Again, I hope it works out of for them as I hope it sets a new trend of viable non-manufacture power unit providers.

Richard

[chillibowl]

bit of a side question, but where does Honda build their F1 engines out of?

[Born Racer]

To be fair to Red Bull, they've proven to be a very handy team for the best part of ten years. Mercedes might be dominating, but they're there to pick up the pieces. Operationally they are probably one of the best. Look at how they've made themselves the best pit stoppers, for instance. This could be the making of them. Or their downfall, but they've painted themselves into a corner ('not a customer team') where they have no option.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

bit of a side question, but where does Honda build their F1 engines out of?

Honda's engines were built in Sakura with additional work being done at Milton Keynes.

Red Bull Powertrains is based in Milton Keynes.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Honda's engines were built in Sakura with additional work being done at Milton Keynes.

Red Bull Powertrains is based in Milton Keynes.

thanks!

[Greem]

You'd be looking just about here - note the fairly discreet Mugen signage.

[S griffin]

Honda certainly did better in recent seasons than when they initially came back to F1 with McLaren in the mid 10s. I did wonder if they were cut out to be in F1 in this day and age. And it's not really a surprise they are now leaving again, even if they have finally managed to find success. They never seemed to fit in

[bjohnsonsmith]

When Yusuke Hasegawa left as head of Honda F1 at the end of 2017, he said Honda had very high expectations and that was their big mistake. They were too ambitious and were simply not ready for a return to F1 having been away for seven years.

Despite the initial move to STR and then to RB, I think Honda were constantly trying to play catch up. 7 years is a long time to be out of something like F1.

https://pressfrom.info/uk/news/sport...f1-return.html

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Greem

You'd be looking just about here - note the fairly discreet Mugen signage.

Are you sure?
IIRC Mugen had already a factory in UK before Honda's McLaren involvement in 2015.

[Adam43]

Was the MK operation set up for both “Honda” and “Mugen”? I think it was that rather than take over a Mugen facility, although they were close by anyway

https://komarjohari.wordpress.com/20...poke-premises/

https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature...nquer-f1-again
https://www.eurosport.com/formula-1/...21/story.shtml

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Greem

You'd be looking just about here - note the fairly discreet Mugen signage.

I think that's the old factory, the new factory is across the road: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.02...7i13312!8i6656

Gosh, Milton Keynes sure is glamorous!

[Greem]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I think that's the old factory, the new factory is across the road: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.02...7i13312!8i6656

Gosh, Milton Keynes sure is glamorous!

That's why I said "just about here" as there's a facility with Honda signage on both sides of the road.

I don't think RBR can move the engine stuff to where they are, unless they pay surrounding businesses to move off the estate they're in. I had a chance to visit a few years back and compared to (say) Williams or Mercedes with their tidy enclosed sites, RBR felt like a bit of a hodge podge of industrial units with a public road through the middle.

Don't get me wrong, inside it was spectacular like the others, but totally different outside.

Just remembered some staff looking at my car funny when I arrived... Turned out my front offside caliper was binding and they could see the smoke when I parked up

[Moneyseeker]

Interesting to see that Volkswagen are considering spinning Porsche out of VAG via a possible flotation to raise funds for continued electricfication of the VAG models.

Perhaps Red Bull might buy a stake in Porsche and then bring them into F1 as either engine brand or do a 'Stroll' and have Porsche F1 Racing?

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