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Old 14 Sep 2018, 04:08 (Ref:3849985)   #61
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Originally Posted by jimclark View Post
wnut - If you're referring to bjsmith's "end", they were using v-12s, not 16s. The V-16s were very early on (if that's when you meant, pardon me. ), then IL-4s, V-8s, the H-16 in mid '60s (which I'm pretty sure was the last 16 cylinder engine in F1). V-8s and finally V-12s.
BRM chose the V16 over that very v12 design, if they had adopted the V12 instead of the V16 the BRM story may have been very different, the V12 was a really good engine. It would have been untouchable if it had been introduced at the beginning of the 3 liter formula.
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Old 14 Sep 2018, 05:04 (Ref:3849998)   #62
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Weak as it may be...my attempt at returning the thread to it's roots....

If only SUNOCO had sponsored Rogere's (Penske) F1 effort, we mighta' seen some very simple but very beautiful livery on his PC1s, 3s, and 4s...maybe like:

http://1u4we0207ruc34o1s412c2ca.wpen.../KO_MHAR-3.jpg

or

http://api.ning.com/files/3**UVPA*eS...led48small.jpg

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Old 14 Sep 2018, 06:51 (Ref:3850007)   #63
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I always thought that the F1 Penskes were very beautiful and immaculately prepared:

http://picssr.com/photos/sieversraci...=133741471@N06

Bottom of page.
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Old 14 Sep 2018, 10:17 (Ref:3850037)   #64
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BRM chose the V16 over that very v12 design, if they had adopted the V12 instead of the V16 the BRM story may have been very different, the V12 was a really good engine. It would have been untouchable if it had been introduced at the beginning of the 3 liter formula.
Humbly, and with all due respect, I'm sure you're mistaken. There was no BRM V-16 during the three litre era, that was what confused me. It was the heavy, unreliable, H-16 (one flat-8 stacked upon another, so to speak, with a gear driven output shaft), reverting to V-12 in '67. The BRM story remained the same even with the V-12. Heck at least they had both Championships in '62 with Graham (V-8).
The H-16 had one win in the back of Jimmy's Lotus at Watkins Glen in '66.

See my signature below.
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Old 14 Sep 2018, 10:23 (Ref:3850038)   #65
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Humbly, and with all due respect, I'm sure you're mistaken. There was no BRM V-16 during the three litre era, that was what confused me. It was the heavy, unreliable, H-16 (one flat-8 stacked upon another, so to speak, with a gear driven output shaft), reverting to V-12 in '67. The BRM story remained the same even with the V-12. Heck at least they had both Championships in '62 with Graham (V-8).
The H-16 had one win in the back of Jimmy's Lotus at Watkins Glen in '66.

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Sorry Jim, you are completely right, it was the H-16, that was tragically chosen instead of the V12 that was later adopted. (Have no idea why I put V16??!!)
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Old 14 Sep 2018, 10:43 (Ref:3850042)   #66
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Sorry Jim, you are completely right, it was the H-16, that was tragically chosen instead of the V12 that was later adopted. (Have no idea why I put V16??!!)
No problem. Only thirty lashes with a wet noodle for you!!!

The last paragraph from a good little read on the H-16:

"The BRM P83 H16 was doomed from the start. The engine was way too ambitious and absurdly complex. Its massive weight, narrow power band and dreadful center of gravity in effect made it wholly unsuitable for racing. Its appalling reliability made its viability even worse. After stubbornly soldiering on with the concept in the P115, BRM eventually wised up. For 1968 it opted to developed a much more conventional and reliable V12."


The entire article: https://www.carthrottle.com/post/wy3vdr8/


H-16s, turbines at Indy (F1, and endurance racing), the switch to mocoque, etc., etc.
It's interesting what one remembers (and doesn't) as one gets "old"...eek..."er".

Yes, those were the days.
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Old 15 Sep 2018, 03:46 (Ref:3850217)   #67
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Thanks for the link Jim, whilst doing penance and recovering from the severe beating, I followed up on the article, to refresh the dodgy memory and found this:

http://www.thehodgkinsons.org.uk/brm-e-H16.htm

Looks like a longer piece that your article may have been taken from.

It had an interesting point that I really did not know:

"It should also be remembered that while running the H16 the team worked on the BRM V8, Westlake V12, Matra V12 and their own BRM V12 - all race winners at one time or another."

All really good engines!

Perhaps they should have just gone with a 3 liter version of their original V8.
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Old 15 Sep 2018, 04:15 (Ref:3850228)   #68
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Perhaps they should have just gone with a 3 liter version of their original V8.
Yup....V-8 configuration worked out really fine for Michael and Keith, no?
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Old 15 Sep 2018, 04:19 (Ref:3850229)   #69
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Yup....V-8 configuration worked out really fine for Michael and Keith, no?
That was my thinking exactly.
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Old 15 Sep 2018, 04:52 (Ref:3850236)   #70
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Reading that article, BRM certainly had a rather hap hazard way of doing things, as well as wasting resources in the process. It seems to have been a recurrent theme. I remember when they would quite often run 4-5 drivers per race, during the 1972 season and 3 drivers in 1973. Maintaining all those cars, can't have helped with the development of the P180, which only won one race, the non championship, 2nd World Championship Victory Race at Brands Hatch in 1972. The following year they went back to using the P160.

With all this focus on BRM, how about BRM's livery history, that would bring the thread, as interesting as it, back on track.
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Old 15 Sep 2018, 05:41 (Ref:3850244)   #71
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Weslake - no ' T ' (he said , pedantically )
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Old 15 Sep 2018, 08:11 (Ref:3850258)   #72
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No place for pedantry round here, sonny.
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Old 15 Sep 2018, 19:31 (Ref:3850391)   #73
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No place for pedantry round here, sonny.
But, but, but....I have a penchant for sunny days...... (oh, was that pedant and sonny...?)
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Old 17 Sep 2018, 01:56 (Ref:3850896)   #74
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With all this focus on BRM, how about BRM's livery history, that would bring the thread, as interesting as it, back on track.
That's exactly what I'm planning to do mate. Should have the video ready in a couple of weeks or so. I owe a lot to all of the knowledgeable posters here on tentenths for laying down some invaluable info on the team and inspiring me to base my next video on them.
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Old 17 Sep 2018, 02:05 (Ref:3850898)   #75
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That's exactly what I'm planning to do mate. Should have the video ready in a couple of weeks or so. I owe a lot to all of the knowledgeable posters here on tentenths for laying down some invaluable info on the team and inspiring me to base my next video on them.
Look forward to it.
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