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Old 4 Sep 2018, 05:38 (Ref:3848059)   #1
Terry S
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Programmes to turn off spectators

You sometimes wonder if promoters set programmes to deliberately turn off spectators.

I was reminded of this when looking at last Sundays programme at Winton. This was a round of CAMS National Racing Championships.

Some examples:

There were two races for Australian GT Trophy Series. These were of 50 minutes each. BUT there were only 6 starters in each. Yes only 6.
Imagine watching that for 50 whole minutes.

There were 3 races for the CAMS fiasco Formula 4. Of course they had to be on the CAMS programme. After all this time they still only have 11 starters. Each race was about 20 minutes. Again BORING

Then the climax was a race for the Australian Production Car series.
This was of 120 minutes. Yes 120 minutes.
The first three home were Lotus Exige, a very boring car to watch. And when was the last time you saw one on the road.
And with pit stops etc. who among the few spectators would have known who was coming where.....

All in all a great effort at turning off potential spectators.

Oh for the good old entertaining days of Oran Park, Amaroo and Calder.
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Old 4 Sep 2018, 06:59 (Ref:3848067)   #2
Alan52
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You probably need to come to grips with the fact that since the end of Procar everything outside Supercars needs to be run for the benefit of competitors not spectators.Worldwide attendances outside the top tier of professional racing are pretty minuscule.Even where promoters have tried to structure things with spectators in mind they don't turn up.
The change started in most sports with the introduction of colour television.These days when enthusiasts have access to most nearly everything in the world anything that doesn't compare with that won't get them to attend a circuit.

Last edited by Alan52; 4 Sep 2018 at 07:12.
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Old 4 Sep 2018, 08:52 (Ref:3848086)   #3
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Yes , I thought seriously of going to Winton last weekend but probably glad I didn't. F4 and Porsche Gt3 put on great racing but as has been said the overly long GT Trophy and Production car races were a put off. Personally I can't see much wrong with F4 , some talented drivers are emerging from the category and the latest appears to be Ojeda. Randle and Everingham are standouts.
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Old 4 Sep 2018, 09:36 (Ref:3848096)   #4
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The motorsport landscape in Australia, particularly circuit racing, is too small to sustain such fragmentation. The top end of town is doing alright for itself. Grassroots-level racing is as popular as ever. The giant void in the middle doesn't seem to be getting much in the way of a retrun on investment.

Why GT remained split up this year, is beyond me. Given the dismal grids last year, they should have consolidated the whole lot into one package. For such small grids, long-winded endurance races are a waste of time. They would've been better off with a pair of 1hr races, 2-driver/1-driver - whatever, per weekend. As it is, they're not engaging enough to watch via stream, let alone trackside. GT racing elsewhere in the world is still a fair way ahead. That a breakaway series exists, along with GT3-spec cars being grandfathered into state-level racing, isn't a good sign.

Production cars; seriously. If you're sinking $200K+ annually (allegedly) into a new outright car, you should be playing elsewhere. GT4, perhaps. CAMS should have reigned this in years ago. Porsches, Lotii, high-end BMWs really don't do the catagory any favours whatsoever.

Formula 4, the racing is getting better but the slow uptake is a worry. Something is fundamentally wrong behind the scenes, if it's being side-stepped for Toyota 86s.
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Old 4 Sep 2018, 10:48 (Ref:3848105)   #5
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Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
The motorsport landscape in Australia, particularly circuit racing, is too small to sustain such fragmentation. The top end of town is doing alright for itself. Grassroots-level racing is as popular as ever. The giant void in the middle doesn't seem to be getting much in the way of a retrun on investment.

Why GT remained split up this year, is beyond me. Given the dismal grids last year, they should have consolidated the whole lot into one package. For such small grids, long-winded endurance races are a waste of time. They would've been better off with a pair of 1hr races, 2-driver/1-driver - whatever, per weekend. As it is, they're not engaging enough to watch via stream, let alone trackside. GT racing elsewhere in the world is still a fair way ahead. That a breakaway series exists, along with GT3-spec cars being grandfathered into state-level racing, isn't a good sign.

Production cars; seriously. If you're sinking $200K+ annually (allegedly) into a new outright car, you should be playing elsewhere. GT4, perhaps. CAMS should have reigned this in years ago. Porsches, Lotii, high-end BMWs really don't do the catagory any favours whatsoever.

Formula 4, the racing is getting better but the slow uptake is a worry. Something is fundamentally wrong behind the scenes, if it's being side-stepped for Toyota 86s.
I would say the costs would be way higher for F4 compared to Toyota 86 so I can understand young drivers taking the 86 route, but whether that sort of racing will produce a great caliber of drivers compared to what the open wheel classes (FF etc) have is debatable. But I agree that the allowance of more expensive cars into production car racing may not be good for the category but neither is the age of some of the cars going around either (Toyota Echo, Honda Integra etc).
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Old 5 Sep 2018, 14:36 (Ref:3848328)   #6
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Razor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridRazor should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Also I see that there's no national drift series. Only a few club state meetups.
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Old 5 Sep 2018, 23:47 (Ref:3848411)   #7
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Also I see that there's no national drift series. Only a few club state meetups.
They come and go.

Similar fate to circuit racing, where series are competing directly against each other, only to all fall over at once.
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 00:34 (Ref:3848412)   #8
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Also I see that there's no national drift series. Only a few club state meetups.
What a completely irelevant post.......
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 02:00 (Ref:3848424)   #9
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Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
You sometimes wonder if promoters set programmes to deliberately turn off spectators.

I was reminded of this when looking at last Sundays programme at Winton. This was a round of CAMS National Racing Championships.

Some examples:

There were two races for Australian GT Trophy Series. These were of 50 minutes each. BUT there were only 6 starters in each. Yes only 6.
Imagine watching that for 50 whole minutes.

There were 3 races for the CAMS fiasco Formula 4. Of course they had to be on the CAMS programme. After all this time they still only have 11 starters. Each race was about 20 minutes. Again BORING

Then the climax was a race for the Australian Production Car series.
This was of 120 minutes. Yes 120 minutes.
The first three home were Lotus Exige, a very boring car to watch. And when was the last time you saw one on the road.
And with pit stops etc. who among the few spectators would have known who was coming where.....

All in all a great effort at turning off potential spectators.

Oh for the good old entertaining days of Oran Park, Amaroo and Calder.
As Alan has pointed out - the series doesn't exist or survive on the back of spectators. It is a competitor focused series.

It is also important to understand that schedules and race formats are designed and confirmed well before final entries are counted.

Despite the grid size being ridiculously low - the top 3 or 4 Australian GT cars put on a close and entertaining race for the 50mins. Not the best possible way to spend 50mins however not a complete disaster.

In regards to the APCC races - I thought they were good to watch, both outright and through the classes. I was a big fan of the 2 hour format as well.

I was trackside and listening to the PA & monitoring the live timing through the Shannons Website provided me with more than enough information to know who was where on track.

Keen to understand what are your expectations were and what more you wanted the series to do for you?

Last edited by D.R.T.; 6 Sep 2018 at 02:13.
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 02:19 (Ref:3848425)   #10
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What a completely irelevant post.......
Not at all
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 02:42 (Ref:3848427)   #11
Umai Naa
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It deserved a mention, as it too is an unstructured shambles, in this country at least.
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 02:56 (Ref:3848429)   #12
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Also I see that there's no national drift series. Only a few club state meetups.
There hasn't been for a few years now. State series are hit and miss depending on the state you live in, but there are couple of very strong groups out there just doing their thing.

Although, it is about time someone thinks they can run a national series better than the last group that did it and fell over.
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 07:19 (Ref:3848450)   #13
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I have just been reading the latest Australian Muscle Car Mag (issue#104) and very pleased to see that Luke West in his Editorial Column is very much in agreement with me on querying what has happened to race day programmes.

I quote from his opening:

"What ever happened to a good old fashioned day at the races, I ask you?
I'm talking a Sunday when you parked your butt trackside to enjoy a quick-fire program of 15-18 sprints . .. You would set up shop where you could see a goodly proportion of the track and settle in for the day".

He goes on to bemoan many of the things I detest such as pitstops, delays between races, failure to see much of the action at street circuits etc. etc.

In the old days a day at the races was entertainment. It is generally agreed that the most exciting part of any race is the start, so the more races the better.

Just looking at three random Oran Park programmes for race days I attended for the number of races there were on Sunday. In November 1965 it was 17, in July 1966 it was 19, and in May 1967 it was 18.

West finishes with" While other sports are moving to improving facilities for crowds, motorsport has made visiting a circuit less enticing".

I commend this article for your reading.
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 09:36 (Ref:3848461)   #14
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It deserved a mention, as it too is an unstructured shambles, in this country at least.


Used to be a solid national series with some good drivers but the rise and fall of such series coincided with the rise and fall of the AutoSalon scene amongst other things of course.
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 09:57 (Ref:3848466)   #15
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Originally Posted by Terry S View Post
I have just been reading the latest Australian Muscle Car Mag (issue#104) and very pleased to see that Luke West in his Editorial Column is very much in agreement with me on querying what has happened to race day programmes.

I quote from his opening:

"What ever happened to a good old fashioned day at the races, I ask you?
I'm talking a Sunday when you parked your butt trackside to enjoy a quick-fire program of 15-18 sprints . .. You would set up shop where you could see a goodly proportion of the track and settle in for the day".

He goes on to bemoan many of the things I detest such as pitstops, delays between races, failure to see much of the action at street circuits etc. etc.

In the old days a day at the races was entertainment. It is generally agreed that the most exciting part of any race is the start, so the more races the better.

Just looking at three random Oran Park programmes for race days I attended for the number of races there were on Sunday. In November 1965 it was 17, in July 1966 it was 19, and in May 1967 it was 18.

West finishes with" While other sports are moving to improving facilities for crowds, motorsport has made visiting a circuit less enticing".

I commend this article for your reading.
Terry,
Obviously you have not been to SMSP the last few years where the ARDC has run a number of rounds of the CAMS State MRC with Qualifying and Races on Saturday being in the high teens with similar numbers for Sunday.
In some cases a category will have qual and 3 or 4 races on the Saturday and Supercarts would do likewise on Sunday.

Usually great racing right through the programme however it is up to the drivers to provide that -sometimes no matter the number of entrants in a particular race it can be a procession yet sometimes a small field will put on sensational dicing.
Supercars can field 26 cars yet processions regularly occur unfortunately.
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 20:45 (Ref:3848553)   #16
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Terry,
Obviously you have not been to SMSP the last few years where the ARDC has run a number of rounds of the CAMS State MRC with Qualifying and Races on Saturday being in the high teens with similar numbers for Sunday.
In some cases a category will have qual and 3 or 4 races on the Saturday and Supercarts would do likewise on Sunday.

Usually great racing right through the programme however it is up to the drivers to provide that -sometimes no matter the number of entrants in a particular race it can be a procession yet sometimes a small field will put on sensational dicing.
Supercars can field 26 cars yet processions regularly occur unfortunately.
Can I assume you are the Oldfart that posts on The Roaring Season and is now resident in the UK
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 23:45 (Ref:3848572)   #17
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Can I assume you are the Oldfart that posts on The Roaring Season and is now resident in the UK
Never assume anything -I am not the person you are referring to and have never been to the UK.
I have been around motor sport since the mid 50s and have been a club level competitor,office bearer and a volunteer race official with a continuous involvement since the early 60s.

I am aware that you are a regular poster on The Nostalgia Forum and if I remember correctly from something in one of your posts somewhere along the way we could be from the same area.
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Old 7 Sep 2018, 03:06 (Ref:3848602)   #18
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The state racing series in Victoria is similar - Qualy & races all day Saturday, with Sunday continuous racing all day, the Nationals have let it self down in recent years with less categories on the bill now than before.

Given that, some longer races can be good depending on the quality of the field.
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Old 12 Sep 2018, 23:08 (Ref:3849741)   #19
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All in all a great effort at turning off potential spectators.
As stated, the Cams Nationals is designed for the benefit of competitors NOT spectactors.

I agree that a poor Formula 4 field is a shame, compared to the great fields and close racing that Formula Ford produces. But F4 is CAMS' baby so on the program it goes...
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Old 12 Sep 2018, 23:10 (Ref:3849743)   #20
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Honda Integra etc).
Blasphemy! The Integra is an icon.

Fair play for Integra DC5 drivers to battle on with it, as the suspension geometry is truly terrible compared to the earlier Integra DC2. [The DC5 has massive bumpsteer, a wacky minivan steering rack, and of course no camber gain with the McPhearson strut)
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Old 13 Sep 2018, 02:08 (Ref:3849760)   #21
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Schedule start times so that if someone sneezes the race doesn't go full distance!
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Old 13 Sep 2018, 07:29 (Ref:3849788)   #22
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Blasphemy! The Integra is an icon.

Fair play for Integra DC5 drivers to battle on with it, as the suspension geometry is truly terrible compared to the earlier Integra DC2. [The DC5 has massive bumpsteer, a wacky minivan steering rack, and of course no camber gain with the McPhearson strut)
I'm fine the the age and variety of eligible cars, but the sheer expense some are going to, is downright insane for what is intended to be entry level motorsport.
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Old 13 Sep 2018, 08:20 (Ref:3849798)   #23
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I'm fine the the age and variety of eligible cars, but the sheer expense some are going to, is downright insane for what is intended to be entry level motorsport.
Hearing you but then again that kinda defines motorsport in some ways doesn't it? There will always be people (whether or not they can really afford it) who just want to keep doing more and more and spending more and more on their race car.
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Old 16 Sep 2018, 06:23 (Ref:3850506)   #24
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Hearing you but then again that kinda defines motorsport in some ways doesn't it? There will always be people (whether or not they can really afford it) who just want to keep doing more and more and spending more and more on their race car.
...and *that* is why the Hyundai Excels are the greatest series in Australian motorsport!
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