Tracy Denied Win

[paul-collins]

Decision released.

Tony George has decided that it doesn't matter who was ahead when the trackside yellow light / yellow flag is flown.

George noted that, in “real time racing,” a yellow caution period begins when Race Control calls it on the radio, a consistent practice since the Indy Racing League started.

“...The drivers are instructed to react to the first notice they receive of a yellow caution condition, whether a yellow flag, a yellow track light, a yellow dashboard light or Race Control radio instruction.

“...We have several overlapping modes of communication as backup to each other since any can fail or be delayed. These modes of communication are not integrated to initiate at the exact same point in time because they can’t be, and attempting to synchronize them exactly would delay the warning system and defeat the objective of maximizing safety.”
-IRL Website

Also from the same story:

Under Rule 11.2 of the 2002 Indy Racing League rules, the decision whether a car passed another car during a yellow caution period or any matter which involves the exercise of judgment by the officials during an event “may not be protested or appealed and the decision of the officials is final and binding.”

Absolute rubbish!

[macdaddy]

TG's decision is obviously not going to sit well with many people, but I think it was the right call. As a Canadian CART fan, I would have liked to have seen Tracy given the victory, don't get me wrong. But even while watching the race live, I was convinced that Helio had won. The pass occured some four seconds after the crash, and I find it difficult to believe that there were no indications of yellow in that amount of time.

"Under Rule 11.2 of the 2002 Indy Racing League rules, the decision whether a car passed another car during a yellow caution period or any matter which involves the exercise of judgment by the officials during an event “may not be protested or appealed and the decision of the officials is final and binding."

http://www.indyracing.com/press/story.php?story_id=129

[macdaddy]

Seems like we both started similar threads simultaneously, Paul!

[paul-collins]

Yep. Hopefully the mods will merge them.

[paul-collins]

My problem with the lack of priority of one signalling system over the others is that you have possibilities of system breakdown causing some drivers to react and some to not (as is obviously the case for PT vs Helio). Helio, it appears, reacted to his yellow light and radio, while there was no yellow call on PT's radio and he apparently didn't have a yellow light on in his car.

They're claiming that Helio had a gallon of fuel left after the 2.5 laps under yellow (1.5 as part of the race, 1 victory lap). (a) what is the fuel consumption difference between race and yellow? (b) when does fuel pickup become an issue? I think this may be a red herring.

[paul-collins]

I noticed this quote, too. Why did it take a month for this to be cited?

[The Beer Baron]

Its when the yellows come on , thats when the music stops! NOT WHEN THE CRASH OCCURED!

THE IRL is infamous for its dubious yellow flag situations, "debris" yellows!

[macdaddy]

I'm fully aware that the racing stops with the yellow, not the crash.

They say that TG's 11-page decision is available to the public. If anyone can find it on the net, let us know.

[paul-collins]

It's here:

IRL Indy 500 Appeal Decision

[paul-collins]

My first idiotic quote from the decision:

The videos of the Race can be interpreted as showing the track yellow lights coming on when Car #26 was outside Car #3 on the third turn. At that moment, Car #26 appears ahead of Car #3 by approximately four to six feet based on an imaginary start/finish line[3] across the race track in turn three, but at that same moment Car #3 would be ahead of Car #26 by approximately ten to twelve feet based on the distance of the Cars to the actual start/finish line.[4]

The lesson here is always pass on the inside.

[macdaddy]

"Green could appeal again, but attorney Dave Mattingly, who served as the hearing administrator, said last month that both teams agreed George's decision would be the final step in the contested finish."

http://sports.yahoo.com/rac/irl/news...500appeal.html

And thanks to Paul for posting the link to the decision.

[paul-collins]

This decision is extremely poorly written. It is also a bit of a diatribe against Team Green.

Here's what it boils down to - the yellow is official when Race Control calls for it. The radio calls, dash lights, flags and track lights all respond to it. Drivers respond to the first of those four indicators they apprehend.

Why TG can't just say this, I cannot understand.

[paul-collins]

Here's another fallacy TG writes:

Ironically, under Team Green's theory (that PT should be awarded the win based on completing the 200 laps first -ed.), Scott Goodyear would have won the 1995 Indianapolis 500 mile race, not Jacques Villeneuve who drove for Team Green in that race. In that race, Scott Goodyear passed the pace car during a yellow caution period but ignored the instructions of Race Control to come in to the pits. In ignoring Race Control, Scott Goodyear was the first to "finish" 200 laps in that race.

Wrong! Applying the same logic would still give the win to JV, as he completed 202 laps! He was penalized earlier for passing under yellow, the same penalty awarded to Scott Goodyear at the end. Either the penalty counts for both, or for neither.

[paul-collins]

From the appended rule book:

7.14 Yellow Flag (Caution) -The yellow caution period starts with the display of the yellow flag and/or yellow lights and ends with the display of the green flag and/or green lights. Racing ceases immediately upon display of the yellow flag and/or yellow light...

TG makes a big deal of not distinguishing between yellow lights, as if the rule is written to include yellow dash lights as well as yellow trackside lights. However, dashes don't have green lights, do they? If they don't, then you can't say the rulebook refers to all lights. This is a binary system. You can't have 1s without 0s.

[paul-collins]

Please reply to the "Castroneves wins 500" thread.

[zealot]

Tony George is scum. His greed ruined CART racing, and open-wheel racing in America. If you thought he was ever going to rule against Penske after Penske came to the IRL, you're denser than the rubber in the tires.

And if the ruling the day of the race was unappealable, as George said, why did he waste our time and Green's time? Was he trying to pull the wool over the fans' eyes, or did he just want more media coverage?

His double talk and nonsense in the press release show he has no reasoning behind his ruling. Unfortunately, the ignorant hordes of "race fans" will continue to flock to Indy every year because that is what they have always done. Never mind that CART has better drivers, better cars, better owners, better sponsors, etc., most of the fans at Indy are just there for the beer and the parties. Open wheel racing is dead in America, it's time we face the music. This totally insane ruling is the final nail in the coffin.

[botsquad]

Originally posted by zealot
Tony George is scum. most of the fans at Indy are just there for the beer and the parties.

Open wheel racing is dead in America, it's time we face the music. This totally insane ruling is the final nail in the coffin.

wow....that's so negative........
i need a drink...................

happy independence day...........try neckcar

[Jordi]

I just hope Green stays in CART after the latest act by Tony George

[yintandiddleipo]

Originally posted by zealot
And if the ruling the day of the race was unappealable, as George said, why did he waste our time and Green's time? ..... or did he just want more media coverage?

TG looking for publicity? No, Never

[marcus]

ive merged the two threads about the decision , sorry if i have done it wrong actuallt the first time Ive ever had to merge threads , but anyway we should be able to survive with this

now about the decision, , well ummm what can you say , "thats racing"

and can we please be carefull about what we say here , we dont want to be held accountable for anything that gets said and can cause any problems for ten tenths and the site owners

[paul-collins]

Ta, marcus.

[Jay]

Well...no surprise. This was Tony George's personal decision, would you expect anything else?

As far as figuring things out, what I get from that is that a caution starts when a yellow is called on the radio. In the race, PT was leading when this occured. HOWEVER, the race control put Helio infront instead as he judged it to be the other way around. And a judgement call is not questionable.

So, Paul Tracy won, but the IRL said he didn't so that's what will stand.

BTW, anyone know where I can find a Shirt that says "Paul Tracy 2002 Indy 500 winner" ...or something like that?

[paul-collins]

I'm sure some enterprising soul will have shirts and posters downtown this weekend. It's only a 5 hour drive, Jay. C'mon down to the city that stinks!

[Jay]

Will do, and will be sure steal a gas mask from a lost G8 protestor.

[macdaddy]

"The IRL Officials have repeatedly instructed participants that they are to react to the FIRST notification they receive of a yellow caution period. As a reminder, the IRL Officials instruct the drivers and crew chiefs in mandatory drivers meetings to obey all yellow caution period notices, specifically mentioning the radio call from Race Control, the dashboard yellow lights, the track yellow lights, and the yellow flags, including the red flag with the yellow cross."

"The telemetry data on Car#3, when synchronized with the race videos and IRL timing and scoring data, showed that the dashboard yellow light radio on Car#3 received the yellow light signal when Car#3 was in front of Car#26."

Apparently HCN was in the lead when the radio call came out, when the dashlights came on, and when the red flag with a yellow cross was displayed at pit-in. HCN reacted to his dashlights, and to take the victory away from him because of that would be wrong.

I am very surprised about some of the wording TG used in his decision, especially considering that he would like Team Green to come to the IRL. "Team Green's interpretation of the Rules is not logical..."

Like I've said in another thread last month, it is too bad that they won't put both men's faces onto the Borg-Warner for 2002. Both drove splendidly, both deserved the victory. This race will forever be remembered for its controversial finish, and the victory for HCN will forever be tarnished.