[Tech Issue] Closed cockpits- Closer to reality then we might think?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

How well do you think the RBR aero screen would bolt onto an F3 car?

If the design of the "new" car is mandated to use it, I expect just fine. I may be wrong, but my understanding is that it doesn't "just work", but that the FIA/F1 halo is a spec part that the new cars are told to use. I believe these are not old cars retrofitted to use the halo, but new cars designed around it. The same thing could have been done with an IndyCar Aeroscreen like solution if the FIA had wanted to do so. But Vettel got dizzy, so it didn't happen.

Do you think the 2015 FIA/F1 halo design would just naturally bolt up to the existing 2012 Dallara DW12 chassis (or any other open cockpit chassis that predates the halo design)? I guess there is a remote (and random) chance it might work? But the 2012 chassis was not designed to work with any halo system as none existed when it was designed. It would likely require a noticeably bulky and wonky adapter to be built. Probably not to different than what was done for the Aeroscreen.

Richard

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

If the design of the "new" car is mandated to use it, I expect just fine. I may be wrong, but my understanding is that it doesn't "just work", but that the FIA/F1 halo is a spec part that the new cars are told to use. I believe these are not old cars retrofitted to use the halo, but new cars designed around it. The same thing could have been done with an IndyCar Aeroscreen like solution if the FIA had wanted to do so. But Vettel got dizzy, so it didn't happen.

Do you think the 2015 FIA/F1 halo design would just naturally bolt up to the existing 2012 Dallara DW12 chassis (or any other open cockpit chassis that predates the halo design)? I guess there is a remote (and random) chance it might work? But the 2012 chassis was not designed to work with any halo system as none existed when it was designed. It would likely require a noticeably bulky and wonky adapter to be built. Probably not to different than what was done for the Aeroscreen.

Richard

I based my theory on the fact that the F1 HALO is pretty well aerodynamically neutral and will add very little drag and lift to the car.
The IndyCar version with its extensive transparent lexan screen will have a huge effect on the car's aerodynamics, by the time you get back to the more delicate and lower powered formula cars the effect of these changes will be imo unacceptable in the case of the IndyCar version, whilst the HALO provides good protection with very little overall effect on the car.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

I based my theory on the fact that the F1 HALO is pretty well aerodynamically neutral and will add very little drag and lift to the car.
The IndyCar version with its extensive transparent lexan screen will have a huge effect on the car's aerodynamics, by the time you get back to the more delicate and lower powered formula cars the effect of these changes will be imo unacceptable in the case of the IndyCar version, whilst the HALO provides good protection with very little overall effect on the car.

I agree that the F1 halo would have a more neutral impact to an existing aero concept. And I expect that was probably a significant reason something like the Aeroscreen wasn't selected for F1. To be clear, my thinking here is not that it wouldn't work, but rather teams had already invested in specific aero concepts that might have required rework to adjust to a more covered cockpit. In short, F1 is powerful enough to drive the direction of change in a way that is most convenient to them, even if resulting in a lesser solution. My dig earlier at Vettel for getting dizzy. I strongly suspect that was a directive by Ferrari who wanted to torpedo the concept for their own reasons. But I digress.

But the rest of your argument I can't agree with. I expect the lower powered formulas you mention is not F2 or F3 (as those clearly could adapt), but the very end of the scale such as Formula Vee, Formula Ford, etc.

First, those already have prior examples of windscreen use in their designs. Second, the solution doesn't have to be as bulky as the IndyCar one. Third, I sure hope those grassroot series are not required to use a spec Titanium part designed for F1! That part alone might cost more than the rest of their base chassis! In reality the concept would need to be scaled down to provide appropriate protection for the speeds those cars reach. Same thing applies with respect to the Aeroscreen solution. Lower powered cars dont need protection levels required for 240 mph superspeedway cars. I also probably wouldn't be a spec part, but instead a design spec to follow (just like now for cage specs in closed top cars)

I think the larger issue for the lower series is the cost of any big change and how that solution is integrated into a series in which nobody wants to make a bunch of chassis obsolete.

It's a good discussion wnut, but I am a bit burnt out on it again. Cheers.

Richard

[wnut]

Indycar happy with the protection the aeroscreen afforded during the brake and magnesium explosion experienced by James Davison at the Indy 500.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/28/...nd-up-28-08-3/

[Casper]

I have no problems with a closed cockpit I just wonder how they are going to supply anything like the cooling to the driver in hot races or even in any races. It will have to be a serious amount of air to do that in an effective way, Hamilton reckons he loses 4kg in a race now where the cockpit is at least partially ventilated. The drivers could use cooling suits but then everyone will scream about the added weight.

[Kempi]

Maybe they just ask how the LMP teams do it? It's not like that is a new issue.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Kempi

Maybe they just ask how the LMP teams do it? It's not like that is a new issue.

They use a circulating sytem of coolant into a cool suit as I mentioned above as do some touring car series. It can be refrigerated from an AC compressor or ice in a container and as far as I know open wheelers have not used a system like that so yes it is a new problem for open wheel racing cars.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Casper

They use a circulating sytem of coolant into a cool suit as I mentioned above as do some touring car series. It can be refrigerated from an AC compressor or ice in a container and as far as I know open wheelers have not used a system like that so yes it is a new problem for open wheel racing cars.

IndyCar does it.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

IndyCar does it.

Sure, but F1 has to engineer a more complicated solution, its in the DNA.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

IndyCar does it.

I wasn't aware of that, what system do they use? There is one thing for sure, F1 would not use it for any price, they would have to invent their own and each team use a diferent one because no one is allowed to copy stuff.

[Armco Bender]

Just throw a bucket of dry ice in with driver like they did in the old days...

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Casper

I wasn't aware of that, what system do they use? There is one thing for sure, F1 would not use it for any price, they would have to invent their own and each team use a diferent one because no one is allowed to copy stuff.

Cooling hose to the helmet. Same as sports cars. They're just experimenting with positioning and filter systems to make it suite their cars.

This entire thread is summed up with: "How can we possibly solve these complex engineering problems that other series have already solved?"

[Tanker62M]

Still, I wonder if that's ever going to be possible to have the drivers sit in a small protected "cell" that surrounds them from all sides and shields them from external dangers. Protecting them against fire and splinters is doable, but protecting them from shocks... Even if you were to make the outer shell of that protective "box" out of a magical indestructible material, I doubt the drivers would survive going from 300+ to 0 kph in a quarter of a second.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Tanker62M

Still, I wonder if that's ever going to be possible to have the drivers sit in a small protected "cell" that surrounds them from all sides and shields them from external dangers. Protecting them against fire and splinters is doable, but protecting them from shocks... Even if you were to make the outer shell of that protective "box" out of a magical indestructible material, I doubt the drivers would survive going from 300+ to 0 kph in a quarter of a second.

No they can't. And I think everyone involves understands that is not the goal. It is about risk "reduction", safety "improvement", etc. Not zero risk.

Richard

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by Tanker62M

Protecting them against fire and splinters is doable, but protecting them from shocks... Even if you were to make the outer shell of that protective "box" out of a magical indestructible material, I doubt the drivers would survive going from 300+ to 0 kph in a quarter of a second.

And that's where the old saying isn't not falling that kills, it's the sudden stop. Conservation of momentum law, ... translated to horizontal movement.
If the car stops the body inside keeps moving.
If the body is somehow fully restrained ... the internal organs which are only loosely restrained within the body will keep moving.
Think concussion when brain rattles off inside of the skull, or collapsed lungs where they have been compressed against the inside of the ribcage. Many forms of internal bleeding from innards tearing loose/apart.

This is why crash protection is all about reducing the rate of deceleration, the car crumples, the barriers compress absorbing the energy.

An enclosed cockpit is there for entirely different reasons, that being to prevent debris intrusion. Something which the halo has been proven to do to an extent, likewise the Indy car Aeroscreen.

There continues to be those who throw objections such as cooling or extraction ... there is no need for F1 to re-invent the wheel, there are companies out there that provide cooling or extraction solutions to other enclosed cockpit users.

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

If the body is somehow fully restrained ... the internal organs which are only loosely restrained within the body will keep moving.

In a recent podcast, ex-Indy Lights driver Jason Bright talks about a crash that ruled him out of Gold Coast Indy. In the aftermath, he told the Safety Team that his back was red hot; turned out that his body moved forward while his skin stayed still.

[Oldtony]

At one stage David Purley held the (unwanted) record for survival of a high G crash after his jammed throttle collision with the fence at Silverstone in practice for the British GP.
He went from 108mph to zero in a distance on just over half a metre which was calculated to be a deceleration of 179.8g.
Not sure if anyone has survived a higher level of G.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

At one stage David Purley held the (unwanted) record for survival of a high G crash after his jammed throttle collision with the fence at Silverstone in practice for the British GP.
He went from 108mph to zero in a distance on just over half a metre which was calculated to be a deceleration of 179.8g.
Not sure if anyone has survived a higher level of G.

OT, I think Purley's 'record' stood for a few decades.... until IIRC Kenny Brack had a huge crash at Texas Speedway in an Indycar in the early noughties. That was something like 219G, certainly well over 210G.

Like Purley, Brack survived with his life but his body was badly damaged..... he 'escaped' with a broken sternum, breastbone and femur, shattered vertebra in his spine, crushed ankles and so many other fractures.

Again like David he had multiple surgeries. Kenny made a full recovery and returned to racing at the Indy 500 a couple of years later, before retiring from Indycr after the race. He is still performing at Historic events such as Goodwood. I believe he is now at McLaren (road cars ) as their chief test driver.

[S griffin]

I still remember seeing Brack's accident, he was one lucky boy. He was helped by the car breaking up and dispersing a lot of energy, whilst the survival cell remained intact. The problem is he was kept out for so long with his injuries taking longer and longer to heal

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Cooling hose to the helmet. Same as sports cars. They're just experimenting with positioning and filter systems to make it suite their cars.

This entire thread is summed up with: "How can we possibly solve these complex engineering problems that other series have already solved?"

That is ventilation to the helmet not a full cool suit as some classes such as Supercars use.

[Akrapovic]

Yeah. When the cockpits had no shield it's not like the drivers were getting airflow to their legs (other than the nose opening) is it? Putting the shield there takes cooling away from the face area. Introducing the cooling hose to the helmet solves that.

In this thread: "These problems everyone else has solved? How can we solve these?"

[bjohnsonsmith]

The biggest problem has been what the drivers call stagnant air, building up behind the Aeroscreen and temperatures rising in the cockpit. At Iowa, IndyCar introduced scoops, (circled in yellow) at the top of the Aeroscreen, which improved getting rid of the hot stagnant air. When 7 times NASCAR champion Jimmie Johnson tested at the IMS road coarse, the scoops plus a larger diameter hose feeding air to his helmet, made a significant difference, even at lower speeds. However, at the Indy 500 the scoops weren't used due to the steady high-speed air being fed into the cockpit through the front and sides.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Yeah. When the cockpits had no shield it's not like the drivers were getting airflow to their legs (other than the nose opening) is it? Putting the shield there takes cooling away from the face area. Introducing the cooling hose to the helmet solves that.

In this thread: "These problems everyone else has solved? How can we solve these?"

I thought the discussion was all about closed cockpits not shields which Indy Cars have. The ventilated hoods are a response to shields and not closed cokpits or have I missed something? Have you ever sat in a race car for a couple of hours, Hamilton has and with no canopy he now loses about 4kg in a race. I suspect that a canopy would make the weight loss and dehydration even worse but I might be wrong of course.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Casper

I thought the discussion was all about closed cockpits not shields which Indy Cars have. The ventilated hoods are a response to shields and not closed cokpits or have I missed something? Have you ever sat in a race car for a couple of hours, Hamilton has and with no canopy he now loses about 4kg in a race. I suspect that a canopy would make the weight loss and dehydration even worse but I might be wrong of course.

A tinted canopy would take care of radiant heat better than an open cockpit, and a couple of holes for cockpit air entry and exhaust would take care of airflow. Sports cars have done it just fine for years.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wnut

A tinted canopy would take care of radiant heat better than an open cockpit, and a couple of holes for cockpit air entry and exhaust would take care of airflow. Sports cars have done it just fine for years.

We'll make you the test pilot on a 40+ deg day in Oz and see your reaction. Your point may be valid in a colder climate but even then I have my doubts.