F1 future rule changes - Page 2

**Adam43** · 11 Dec 2006, 12:32 (Ref:1787908)

Yeah, they haven't won the championship for two years!

It is a pointless debate if just chosing specifics as there is nothing to stop a dull race in any regulations.

It is interesting that some of these spec series have to introduce the side-effect they lost from competition. Red-walled tyres, push to pass. Far better to let these things in naturally and have changes develop with the cars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

And is there anything wrong with the numbers?

They are wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

But it's what we've got,and have had before.

We don't have a spec series, just spec tyres (which is one step towards that). 1996 was the last time we had one supplier. Hardly a classic. We can continue to exchange examples if you like.

Marbot · 11 Dec 2006, 12:52 (Ref:1787933)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Yeah, they haven't won the championship for two years!

hmmm.......now it's Renault/Michelin.At least that won't be repeated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

They are wrong.

Maybe,but they're not just My numbers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

We can continue to exchange examples if you like.

Err.....no.

Pingguest · 11 Dec 2006, 13:10 (Ref:1787958)

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

I don't understand this statement either.Currently the Car/Driver input ratio is about 70/30.Wouldn't it be better to try and get that reversed? Or is Bridgestone versus whoever more exciting?

The ratio 70/30 is mainly due the driver aids. I'm in favor of banning technology that takes over the control over the car, such as traction control, semi-automatic gearboxes and tyre blankets. But we should have less restrictive regulations for other technologies, such as the underbody, tyres and engine.

And if you want to have a spec series, you could watch Champcar and A1GP as well. We don't need Formula 1 to be a spec series, do we?

Marbot · 11 Dec 2006, 13:23 (Ref:1787973)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pingguest

The ratio 70/30 is mainly due the driver aids.

Apparently it's not about 70/30.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pingguest

We don't need Formula 1 to be a spec series, do we?

Then we should go the whole hog and forbid any teams to use any components used by another team.How's that for competition!

**Adam43** · 11 Dec 2006, 13:33 (Ref:1787984)

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

hmmm.......now it's Renault/Michelin.At least that won't be repeated.

Well there will always be a winner! By definition.

Quote:

Err.....no.

Phew, that would be tiresome!

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Apparently it's not about 70/30.

Are you are sure it isn't 80/20, or 29/31, or 72/17/11 (that is my point). Specific numbers for something immeasurable and arbitrary!

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Then we should go the whole hog and forbid any teams to use any components used by another team.How's that for competition!

The point is to allow the situation to develop naturally, not to force the situation one way or the other. The competition needs to be there is desire for it. Sometimes there will be many different manufacturers, sometimes few. Allow that freedom rather than dictate a situation.

However variety is the spice of life.

FPV GTHO · 11 Dec 2006, 14:45 (Ref:1788037)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Out of curiousity, when was it last 70/30 driver/car?

Im just going along with what martyn's saying

Pingguest · 11 Dec 2006, 14:58 (Ref:1788048)

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Then we should go the whole hog and forbid any teams to use any components used by another team.How's that for competition!

If the FIA would allow the teams to outsource the production and/or R&D, it would lower the costs and increase the competition. But what has this to do with a spec series?

Knowlesy · 11 Dec 2006, 18:51 (Ref:1788219)

I am amazed at the folk who are against tyre wars. Don't you realise this is the primary reason why the seasons have been pretty exciting? Advantages ebbed and flowed and changed every weekend, every session. It was great.

Mark Hughes wrote a wonderful column on this in Autosport a few weeks back that sums up my feelings on the tyre war perfectly. We have lost a wonderful, wonderful element of the sport.

The control tyre will make no difference to driver/car input either. It will just stifle variety and we will have rather more predictable race weekends.

Matski · 11 Dec 2006, 19:26 (Ref:1788235)

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

I don't understand this statement either.Currently the Car/Driver input ratio is about 70/30.Wouldn't it be better to try and get that reversed? Or is Bridgestone versus whoever more exciting?

We seem very keen to keep F1 cars at the top of the technology tree.But even on this forum the drivers take precedence over mere machinery.How many times have we run out of superlatives to describe the drivers,only for the paragraph to be finished off by saying "let's hope that RedBull (or whoever) give him a decent car".

Guess I'm in the minority then! I support a manufacturer (BMW).. and I do think that there should be a series where technology and innovation are encouraged, rather than outlawed and stiffled. It's looking less like that will be F1 all the time.

F1, IMHO, should be about man and machine. if you want to remove the machine element, watch sprinting!!

Is F1 a team sport or not? I think it is, therefore I want my team to be able to make themselves better (even if that does involve dumping drivers mid-season)

In football, the game is far more about individual competitors skill (their only equipment is the boots!) yet people support teams... in F1 it seems to be the other way round - illogical to me.

Marbot · 12 Dec 2006, 00:45 (Ref:1788512)

Quote:

Originally Posted by knowlesy

I am amazed at the folk who are against tyre wars.

I wouldn't say that I was against a tyre war.Just the way in which they are used.For me the 2005 season (one tyre rule) was by far the best way to show how good or bad a tyre can be.It was however a little one sided to say the least (except for Indy of course).

I would have liked Michelin to stay and perhaps,along with other tyre manufactures,produced tyres that all the teams could use at all the races.They could be tested on Friday and each team would use the tyre it thought most suitable from all the makes.The best tyre will obviously win through,which means the others have to up their game.Fancifull I know,but at least there is competition.

Marbot · 12 Dec 2006, 00:51 (Ref:1788514)

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Im just going along with what martyn's saying

It's not just me I tell yer!

Andrew2001 · 12 Dec 2006, 00:55 (Ref:1788516)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matski

Guess I'm in the minority then! I support a manufacturer (BMW).. and I do think that there should be a series where technology and innovation are encouraged, rather than outlawed and stiffled. It's looking less like that will be F1 all the time.

F1, IMHO, should be about man and machine. if you want to remove the machine element, watch sprinting!!

Is F1 a team sport or not? I think it is, therefore I want my team to be able to make themselves better (even if that does involve dumping drivers mid-season)

In football, the game is far more about individual competitors skill (their only equipment is the boots!) yet people support teams... in F1 it seems to be the other way round - illogical to me.

Very well said. I think the year they raised the front wings, in 2001, was the start of the really radical looking cars, that we have now.
The rules in '00, were very much a carry over of '98 and '99. Great looking cars, great racing, lots of unpredictability.
Bog standard completely undeveloped GoodYear slicks, the aero restrictions of 1998-00, V10s, and I'll be happy.
Simply putting standard slick tyres on again would reduce the speeds by a second or so anyway, tyres that blister when pushed to hard, not these black things that seem to grip and grip and grip for an entire race distance.

Pingguest · 12 Dec 2006, 15:41 (Ref:1789017)

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

I would have liked Michelin to stay and perhaps,along with other tyre manufactures,produced tyres that all the teams could use at all the races.They could be tested on Friday and each team would use the tyre it thought most suitable from all the makes.

Hmm, they aren't doing that with engines and drivers, do they?

So, why should we have this idea implement specifically for tyres?

ss_collins · 12 Dec 2006, 16:09 (Ref:1789029)

If you read racecar engineering you will know tha I have forseen doom and gloom - fire and white cloud factories at the F1 circuits of the world in 2008.

The engines were all developed with a particular management system in mind many teams like, Toyota for example built the system around the needs of the engine so now swithching to a spec ECU could cause massive problems - they have not tested it and even if they can't make thier engine work well with it they can't change thier engine under the development freeze.

These frozen engines (designed to last 1500km) will also possibly have to do 3000km - though the teams should be a allowed a mild tinker if that happens other wise its a lot more boom bang a bang.

Marbot · 12 Dec 2006, 16:52 (Ref:1789053)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Hmm, they aren't doing that with engines and drivers, do they?

So, why should we have this idea implement specifically for tyres?

Because it only takes about six seconds to put a different set of bloody tyres on!

Pingguest · 12 Dec 2006, 20:26 (Ref:1789236)

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Because it only takes about six seconds to put a different set of bloody tyres on!

Hmm, only if the mechanics make no mistakes. :P But it will take a couple of days to adapt the whole setup to the unknown tyres.

**Adam43** · 12 Dec 2006, 22:43 (Ref:1789353)

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

It's not just me I tell yer!

You'd think one of these people would be able to answer my question about why it is 70/30 and how this has changed over the years, specifically when it was last 30/70.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew2001

The rules in '00, were very much a carry over of '98 and '99. Great looking cars, great racing, lots of unpredictability.
Bog standard completely undeveloped GoodYear slicks, the aero restrictions of 1998-00, V10s, and I'll be happy.

Surely the holy grail isn't '98-'00 racing? Dish-water city. Someone will be crying out for 1997 next!

Marbot · 13 Dec 2006, 01:15 (Ref:1789428)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pingguest

But it will take a couple of days to adapt the whole setup to the unknown tyres.

I bet Ferrari would dearly have loved to test and race with both Michelin and Bridgestone in 2005.

The tyres would be known from pre-season testing.

The teams may find that one make suits one type of circuit better than another,or that one make suits their car better than another.The possibilities are endless.And it's the same for everyone.

There would probably come a point where all the makes of tyre would become virtually the same,as would have probably happened had Michelin continued to battle with Bridgestone despite their differing philosophies.

Marbot · 14 Dec 2006, 17:31 (Ref:1790728)

A recent quote from Martin Brundle.

"I drove the Red Bull at Silverstone recently - in the wet on intermediates - and even an old ****** like me could go into Copse, stamp on the throttle, and the car just sticks! It blew my mind. I've driven F1 cars, on slicks, on a dry track, that had less grip than that. Can't be right, can it? How are we ever going to have racing when the cars are like that?"

Maybe we do have to go backwards in order to go forwards.

Pingguest · 17 Dec 2006, 12:23 (Ref:1792760)

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

The tyres would be known from pre-season testing.

As development goes on, the tyres change. So, knowledge from older becomes irrelevant.

Quote:

The teams may find that one make suits one type of circuit better than another,or that one make suits their car better than another.The possibilities are endless.And it's the same for everyone.

Yeah, but you could say more or less the same about the engine, brakes, gearboxes and electronics.

Pingguest · 17 Dec 2006, 12:26 (Ref:1792764)

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

A recent quote from Martin Brundle.

"I drove the Red Bull at Silverstone recently - in the wet on intermediates - and even an old ****** like me could go into Copse, stamp on the throttle, and the car just sticks! It blew my mind. I've driven F1 cars, on slicks, on a dry track, that had less grip than that. Can't be right, can it? How are we ever going to have racing when the cars are like that?"

Maybe we do have to go backwards in order to go forwards.

Well, you can't and shouldn't try to stop development. But the FIA can only adjust the way technology develops. I think it would be a lot better to have development on tyres, undertray and engines (fuel efficiency) in stead of electronics and on-top aerodynamics.

Marbot · 17 Dec 2006, 13:20 (Ref:1792831)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pingguest

I think it would be a lot better to have development on tyres,

Development on tyres was cut short when they changed the rules back to the 'Sprint-pit-sprint-pit' regulations.Everyone went back to what they already knew,instead of making the one tyre rule work to their and our advantage.So a missed opportunity there IMO.Even now it would be quite possible to let the F1 cars run on GP2 slicks for an instant reduction in lap times.Been there done that,let's move on!

Pingguest · 17 Dec 2006, 14:27 (Ref:1792855)

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Development on tyres was cut short when they changed the rules back to the 'Sprint-pit-sprint-pit' regulations.Everyone went back to what they already knew,instead of making the one tyre rule work to their and our advantage.So a missed opportunity there IMO.

I wasn't a real fan of the ban on tyre changes. It gave drivers with a particular driving style a disadvantage. I think a ban on refuelling, lowering the pit lane speed and restrictions on tyre consumption would have been a lot better.

Quote:

Even now it would be quite possible to let the F1 cars run on GP2 slicks for an instant reduction in lap times.Been there done that,let's move on!

Why should Formula 1 take the GP2-tyres?

Marbot · 17 Dec 2006, 15:44 (Ref:1792878)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Why should Formula 1 take the GP2-tyres?

I didn't say that they should.All I'm saying is that despite all the millions spent on F1 tyres it's still possible to go much faster on cheaper ones!

Pingguest · 17 Dec 2006, 16:28 (Ref:1792895)

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyn bott

I didn't say that they should.All I'm saying is that despite all the millions spent on F1 tyres it's still possible to go much faster on cheaper ones!

The GP2-tyres are nothing less than F1-tyres without grooves.

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