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Old 4 Aug 2020, 12:11 (Ref:3992884)   #26
BertMk2
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Originally Posted by swooshiain View Post
I suspect there's also an element of him wanting to silence people who said it was just the Subaru that made him so fast.
That's the second time I've seen that posted in this thread recently. Odd thing is I don't remember ever seeing it mentioned before? He's always been quick in whatever he's driven (he went off and did some TCR rounds and monstered those for example).
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 12:58 (Ref:3992905)   #27
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Matt K should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridMatt K should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Sutton and Turkington are great examples of totally different approaches. Ash is always giving 110% even if he is comfortably in the top 3 that could earn him good points but he'll always give everything to try and grab the win - even if it means crashing out.
Colin is more cautious, when he's second he'll try to catch the first but not at all costs and when he sees the chances are not great he settles for big points day.
I like Sutton's style, he's exciting to watch but I hope if he's got real chances for the title, he'll be thinking of banking points too.
Brands could be a test for Infiniti. I hope it's not another inconsistent car just like Subaru that needs 150% approach to do reasonable results.
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 13:07 (Ref:3992907)   #28
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Originally Posted by Greem View Post
We could see on Saturday in practice and qualifying that the car was quick, but Sutton was absolutely monstering it and at times overdriving - he went off through the gravel at Redgate 3 times.

In the races the difference in attitude and approach between him and most other drivers was pretty much night and day.

It'll be a fun season if he keeps on like that!
He had at least two times disallowed for exceeding track limits in qualifying, after his overtake he clipped Turkington as he moved over off line, to block Turkington, I think he knew the car wasn't as fast as he was making out. He repeated the same move later too. In grams car certainly looked loose, pretty much how Mat Jackson drove the Focus when he was at Motorbase, that Infiniti didn't look loose at all.
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 13:46 (Ref:3992913)   #29
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There’s no doubting his overtaking prowess, did you see the moves he made at Donny? He at one point did a brilliant three abreast overtake
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 14:07 (Ref:3992921)   #30
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Originally Posted by RS67 View Post
I think he knew the car wasn't as fast as he was making out.
Fastest lap in all 3 races.
Fastest speed through the I1 trap (mid-Craner) in all 3 races.
Fastest speed through both other traps of Swindon-powered cars in races 2&3.
Fastest Swindon car on the main straight in Qualifying.

How much faster did he make it out to be?
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 14:10 (Ref:3992924)   #31
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billy bleach should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbilly bleach should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by RS67 View Post
I thought all rwd cars recieved the same adjustments for the 2and half of last season.
I am intrigued to know what are the elements of the scooby chassis that they have managed to engineer into the Infiniti.
The Driver....
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 15:17 (Ref:3992949)   #32
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Craner Curves should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridCraner Curves should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridCraner Curves should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridCraner Curves should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Outstanding talent. I do like to see a car being driven like that. Muller-esque!
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 17:32 (Ref:3992975)   #33
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Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
Here's hoping Jake has a fit and healthy engine. The lad and the FK2 have always looked good at Brands.

Cookie I can see running well, ditto the Dynamics duo.

I reckon the BMWs will be solid rather than spectacular. And I can see Ash Sutton pushing too hard as I don't think the car and track will be as well suited as Donny - but what do I know?
Cook will be carrying ballast though. Chilton should be faster.
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 17:49 (Ref:3992977)   #34
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Originally Posted by BertMk2 View Post
That's the second time I've seen that posted in this thread recently. Odd thing is I don't remember ever seeing it mentioned before? He's always been quick in whatever he's driven (he went off and did some TCR rounds and monstered those for example).

Oh, I absolutely agree - but I have definitely seen (on more than one forum) people who have tried to minimise Sutton's talent, suggesting the car was a big part of his success, conveniently forgetting how fast he was in all the other cars he's driven. Sadly, some of the more partisan fans out there enjoy throwing spurious criticism at other drivers. Some of the nonsense you see is more like what you would expect to see on a football forum, sometimes.
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 19:25 (Ref:3992996)   #35
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
Fastest lap in all 3 races.
Fastest speed through the I1 trap (mid-Craner) in all 3 races.
Fastest speed through both other traps of Swindon-powered cars in races 2&3.
Fastest Swindon car on the main straight in Qualifying.

How much faster did he make it out to be?
Fastest lap in Race 1 was as a result of finding himself at the back of the field with no cars to hinder him, not really much of a surprise. The other two could easily be a result of exceeding track limits by cutting corners or over shooting track limits exiting a bend.
Many years ago John George surprised everyone when he miraculously had fastest lap at Snetterton, until they realised he had completely missed the chicane coming out of Coram.
Being fastest through Craner doesn't mean he is quickest coming out of a bend. That is what came back and bit him on the arse after overtaking Turkington. He was fast going into the bend, but slower coming out, he caused the cars behind him to bunch, causing Ingram to run into Turkington, pushing him onto Sutton and he spun out. At some point the laws of physics take over.

Last edited by RS67; 4 Aug 2020 at 19:34.
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 19:35 (Ref:3992997)   #36
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RS67 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by swooshiain View Post
Oh, I absolutely agree - but I have definitely seen (on more than one forum) people who have tried to minimise Sutton's talent, suggesting the car was a big part of his success, conveniently forgetting how fast he was in all the other cars he's driven. Sadly, some of the more partisan fans out there enjoy throwing spurious criticism at other drivers. Some of the nonsense you see is more like what you would expect to see on a football forum, sometimes.
Bit of a non entity in the MG.
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 19:37 (Ref:3992999)   #37
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Originally Posted by Craner Curves View Post
Outstanding talent. I do like to see a car being driven like that. Muller-esque!
Assuming we are talking Ivan and not Dirk, now there is a man with talent, especially in the wet or on ice.
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 20:07 (Ref:3993004)   #38
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Assuming we are talking Ivan and not Dirk, now there is a man with talent, especially in the wet or on ice.
what about Jorg ?
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 20:13 (Ref:3993007)   #39
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Bit of a non entity in the MG.

He still won a race in a car that was getting a bit long in the tooth if the past few seasons are anything to go by. He was often qualifying at the front too
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 20:41 (Ref:3993017)   #40
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
He still won a race in a car that was getting a bit long in the tooth if the past few seasons are anything to go by. He was often qualifying at the front too
A first as a result of a reverse grid. Just one solitary 3rd place all season.

There were other drivers out there in cars also getting long in the tooth and they finished far higher, one of them finished 3rd in the championship with 5 wins that year. Sutton was 13th.
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Old 4 Aug 2020, 23:06 (Ref:3993035)   #41
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Originally Posted by RS67 View Post
A first as a result of a reverse grid. Just one solitary 3rd place all season.

There were other drivers out there in cars also getting long in the tooth and they finished far higher, one of them finished 3rd in the championship with 5 wins that year. Sutton was 13th.

Just because it was a reverse grid doesn’t mean it was handed to him. In fact, he passed plenty of cars on his way to win, so your argument is invalid. And what about his front row in Donny in wet conditions? Did you forget that?

Let’s not forget it was his first season too and with a car hadn’t much development since 2014 compared to say the Focus. So there were bound to be a few weekends when he looked less than stellar. Now look at him now, he’s now on it every weekend. Give him credit where it’s due, he’s one of the top touring car drivers and an exciting one to boot
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Old 5 Aug 2020, 00:28 (Ref:3993044)   #42
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I've always thought of him as robust and elbows out.
LOL, you've yet to encounter him on iRacing then!
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Old 5 Aug 2020, 07:19 (Ref:3993061)   #43
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Originally Posted by RS67 View Post
A first as a result of a reverse grid. Just one solitary 3rd place all season.

There were other drivers out there in cars also getting long in the tooth and they finished far higher, one of them finished 3rd in the championship with 5 wins that year. Sutton was 13th.
It was also his first year in a touring car.
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Old 5 Aug 2020, 09:04 (Ref:3993075)   #44
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
Just because it was a reverse grid doesn’t mean it was handed to him. In fact, he passed plenty of cars on his way to win, so your argument is invalid. And what about his front row in Donny in wet conditions? Did you forget that?

Let’s not forget it was his first season too and with a car hadn’t much development since 2014 compared to say the Focus. So there were bound to be a few weekends when he looked less than stellar. Now look at him now, he’s now on it every weekend. Give him credit where it’s due, he’s one of the top touring car drivers and an exciting one to boot
The car performance must have fell off a cliff compared to what Jordan did the previous season then.

He had qualified near the front several times yet only got 2 podiums out of the whole season so yes he did have a lacklustre season, first or not. So perfectly worth pointing out.
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Old 5 Aug 2020, 09:04 (Ref:3993076)   #45
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Originally Posted by RS67 View Post
Being fastest through Craner doesn't mean he is quickest coming out of a bend. That is what came back and bit him on the arse after overtaking Turkington. He was fast going into the bend, but slower coming out, he caused the cars behind him to bunch, causing Ingram to run into Turkington, pushing him onto Sutton and he spun out. At some point the laws of physics take over.
You were clearly watching a different race one to me.

He had completed his overtake of Turkington, and was alongside Cammish going into the next corner. Having rubbed paint with Cammish, he was mid-corner when the first contact came from behind unsettling the car. It was Cammish's pace coming out of the corner that caused the bunching. If you are on the bumper of the car ahead (which you can see from the second screengrab), then your momentum is dictated by the car in front.

What is the argument you are trying to put forward:
Sutton is not a great driver?
The Q50 is not a good car?

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Old 5 Aug 2020, 09:39 (Ref:3993080)   #46
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You were clearly watching a different race one to me.

He had completed his overtake of Turkington, and was alongside Cammish going into the next corner. Having rubbed paint with Cammish, he was mid-corner when the first contact came from behind unsettling the car. It was Cammish's pace coming out of the corner that caused the bunching. If you are on the bumper of the car ahead (which you can see from the second screengrab), then your momentum is dictated by the car in front.

What is the argument you are trying to put forward:
Sutton is not a great driver?
The Q50 is not a good car?

I have just watched the overtake a few times.
Sutton wasn't allowed by Cammish, Sutton was slowed by trying to get the car straightened up again
When Sutton won the championship he was undeniably fast and clean. Following years saw lacklustre performance from the car and Sutton was wringing its neck to make it work, as a result his clean driving started to suffer, last year at Snetterton, I observed the team having to make repairs to his front bumper after races 1 and 2, not just superficial rub marks. So at the moment, no I don't think the Infiniti is truly that quick, he is wringing it's neck like he had been the Subaru. As I said before other drivers were giving him a bit more room to ensure they would have a car ready for this weekend. When there is a 2 week break they may not be so forthcoming.
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Old 5 Aug 2020, 10:03 (Ref:3993082)   #47
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I have just watched the overtake a few times.
Sutton wasn't allowed by Cammish, Sutton was slowed by trying to get the car straightened up again
I will refer to the images below.
Mid-corner, Sutton has a slight gap to Cammish, and has Turkington partially alongside. Moments later, Sutton is closer to Cammish, and Turkington has made contact with Sutton's rear quarter (before Ingram is involved).

It is at this point Sutton's momentum was lost, having been slowed by a combination of Cammish ahead and Turkington alongside. It was due to the influence of other cars, not Sutton's corner attitude.
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Old 5 Aug 2020, 10:17 (Ref:3993087)   #48
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RS67 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Cammish is already pulling away, he isn't holding Sutton up, Sutton is trying to move right to stop Turkington getting up inside him, that results in a rub. Sutton was on the point of oversteer by then, the bunching and nudge from Ingram into Turkington finished off for him. If Cammish was the cause of the bunching, Sutton would have gone into him too.
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Old 5 Aug 2020, 10:40 (Ref:3993095)   #49
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It was massive bunching. There is little anyone can learn about the drivers or the accident other than 6 cars in such close proximity is usually going to end up with someone off the track.
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Old 5 Aug 2020, 11:20 (Ref:3993103)   #50
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I understand the point RS67 is trying to get across, in my simple terms:

The car is not super duper, it is no pure breed race horse like the WSR 3 series.

The jockey (Ash) is "doing" a Frankie Dettori - getting the absolute maximum from the ride under him

(and yes, FD more often than not is on a fantastic horse. But even when I would not expect him to beat others he does - or failing that challenges very hard).

Either way both AS and FD make for great viewing.

I see Sutton in championship contention at the last meet of the year. I don't gamble, if I did my money would still be on Colin because of his more measured thoughtful approach. An Irish Alain Prost, but without the sulkiness, bent nose and resorting to skulduggery to undermine his teammates.
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