[Official] Saudi Arabian Grand Prix 2023: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 2 of 23

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by morninggents

I suspect the increase in F1s popularity is more related to relief from Mercedes 7 year domination.

Maybe - the article does say 'That reverses a long trend of decline in 2009 following two periods of domination by Red Bull and then Mercedes.'

But - did people come back to F1 because the dominance ended?
If people had left, why would they come back unless something attracted them? Before the 2021 season, what would have enticed people to watch again (if it was people who had left that returned)?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Maybe - the article does say 'That reverses a long trend of decline in 2009 following two periods of domination by Red Bull and then Mercedes.'

But - did people come back to F1 because the dominance ended?
If people had left, why would they come back unless something attracted them? Before the 2021 season, what would have enticed people to watch again (if it was people who had left that returned)?

I think people came back in 2021, because another team and driver were able to take on Mercedes and Hamilton and could potentially win the WDC and WCC. It wasn't without a good dose of on track drama either, with the incidents at Silverstone and Monza, which brought an intensity to the season that hadn't been seen for a long time.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Maybe - the article does say 'That reverses a long trend of decline in 2009 following two periods of domination by Red Bull and then Mercedes.'

But - did people come back to F1 because the dominance ended?
If people had left, why would they come back unless something attracted them? Before the 2021 season, what would have enticed people to watch again (if it was people who had left that returned)?

I don't think people came back because Mercedes dominance ended.
I doubt that many of those who decried Mercedes dominance did so because of the brand dominance.
It may have been because of Hamilton dominance, which may have had other contingencies besides his results record, but we had seen periods almost as long in Vettel/RBR dominance and in Ferrari Schumacher dominance which did not alienate people as much as Hamilton's domination.

Now we are entering a period of RBR/ Verstappen dominance which will likely continue unabated until the end of 2025 barring a revision of rules and regulations that handicaps the leading protagonists.

This would be consistent with the gradual emergence of the technical side of the sport which has consistently demonstrated increasingly that even though the time gaps between the first and last car on the grid have decreased the probability of brand or team dominance across a season has gradually but steadily increased since the late 80's and early 90's.

The technical side in design and construction has become a dominant factor.
So despite attempts to split the differences and make the whole circus more open over the last thirty years there have been a persistent tendency to have one or two dominant teams across any given season.

We have still had some brilliant racing but a friend of mine posted a result sheet from the 67 Monanco GP the other day that highlighted the difference some 56 years ago when I was a boy.
1. Hulme (Brabham), G. Hill (Lotus-BRM), Amon (Ferrari), McLaren (McLaren-BRM), Rodreguez (Cooper Maserati) and Spence (BRM).

The starting Grid (first twelve)
Brabham (Brabham), Surtees (Honda), Bandini (Ferrari), Hulme (Brabham), Clark (Lotus), Gurney (Gurney), Stewart (BRM), Hill (Lotus), Siffert (Cooper), McLaren (McLaren), Servoz-Gavin (Matra), Spence (BRM).

That sort of variety and the unpredictability of an outcome made GP racing great in terms of outcome. It was a contest of titans.
Now it is a technical exercise and the drivers are simply players.

Perhaps the success of DTS is that it focusses on the drivers as personalities and gives a backdrop to the technical competition behind the scenes that most casual observers are not aware of.

What DTS has done is given a stage to the real 'Battle of the Titans', which is for most part behind the scenes, and the race is just the outplay on the stage.
That struggle to survive technically and build a career as a driver is now highlighted which gives meaning to the play on the stage.
Now people who would not normally attend the GP to watch a play, now understand the meaning and struggle behind it.
That struggle and battle is now comprehended.

That is what DTS has done to give meaning to the play, which is often not that entertaining if you don't have a context to give it meaning.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Perhaps the success of DTS is that it focusses on the drivers as personalities and gives a backdrop to the technical competition behind the scenes that most casual observers are not aware of.

What DTS has done is given a stage to the real 'Battle of the Titans', which is for most part behind the scenes, and the race is just the outplay on the stage.
That struggle to survive technically and build a career as a driver is now highlighted which gives meaning to the play on the stage.
Now people who would not normally attend the GP to watch a play, now understand the meaning and struggle behind it.
That struggle and battle is now comprehended.

That is what DTS has done to give meaning to the play, which is often not that entertaining if you don't have a context to give it meaning.

A Brilliant summation of the effect of DTS
DTS also puts on show to the technical background and the "politics" to those of us with an interest in what goes on behind the scenes (even if it is edited to entertain rather than inform).

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Maybe - the article does say 'That reverses a long trend of decline in 2009 following two periods of domination by Red Bull and then Mercedes.' But - did people come back to F1 because the dominance ended?
If people had left, why would they come back unless something attracted them? Before the 2021 season, what would have enticed people to watch again (if it was people who had left that returned)?

Having been interested and involved in motorsport all my life (my father, brother, myself and my son have all competed) and having attended my first GP at Silverstone in 1958 and several times since (last time in 2012) I can tell you that I was one of those people that totally turned off F1 during the interminably long period of Mercedes domination between 2013 and 2020. The Verstappen/RedBull resurgence in 2021 came as a breath of fresh air and the last two seasons have rekindled my interest. Seems I am not alone.
I don't know what DTS is and it certainly had no part in my new found passion.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by morninggents

I can tell you that I was one of those people that totally turned off F1 during the interminably long period of Mercedes domination between 2013 and 2020. The Verstappen/RedBull resurgence in 2021 came as a breath of fresh air and the last two seasons have rekindled my interest. Seems I am not alone.
I don't know what DTS is and it certainly had no part in my new found passion.

I certainly wouldn't expect you to be alone - and resurgence in popularity will be down to many factors.

But - if I may - having totally turned off F1, how far into the 2021 season did you become aware that there was a Verstappen/RedBull resurgence, and how did you become aware of this?

[Aysedasi]

I think we as 'enthusiasts' who inhabit a motorsport-related forum will have different experiences. I wasn't particularly turned off by the Merc dominance although interestingly I'm already struggling with the new RBR version. Perhaps part of me wanted to see a Brit take an eighth WDC. Perhaps I am one of those who has 'issues' (justified or otherwise) with the RBR way of doing things and presenting themselves (team management and sometimes driver(s)). Certainly DTS played no part as I've only watched it once. Teretonga is right though, we've been used to one team or other dominating for periods for a long time now. It also makes a difference if your favoured driver is winning the races. If McLaren were dominant and Lando was winning most races, I'd be pretty pleased about that. It's just the way I am.

[Richard Casto]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

I don't think people came back because Mercedes dominance ended.

I agree with your entire post. I only quoted the above part for brevity and because I strong agree it wasn't driven by the end of Mercedes dominance.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Having been interested and involved in motorsport all my life (my father, brother, myself and my son have all competed) and having attended my first GP at Silverstone in 1958 and several times since (last time in 2012) I can tell you that I was one of those people that totally turned off F1 during the interminably long period of Mercedes domination between 2013 and 2020. The Verstappen/RedBull resurgence in 2021 came as a breath of fresh air and the last two seasons have rekindled my interest. Seems I am not alone.
I don't know what DTS is and it certainly had no part in my new found passion.

I tend to agree with you. I've been following F1 avidly since 1972 and I stopped watching and following it closely, partly because of Ferrari and Schumacher's dominance and in particular the fiasco of the 2002 Austrian GP. It was the emergence of Lewis Hamilton that got my interest back, with 2008 being the first F1 season I watched and followed closely since 2002. Ironically, my interest was starting to wain with Hamilton and Mercedes' dominance, so I welcomed Red Bull's resurgence, though I wasn't happy with how the 2021 season ended.

I haven't reached saturation level yet with RBR but if they romp away with the WDC and WCC this season, I'll be getting pretty close to it, so I am hoping to finally see a Ferrari resurgence and I'm thoroughly enjoying Alonso and Aston-Martin being right up there in the mix.

I watched DTS once but that sort of ''reality TV'', if you can call it that, came across as somewhat contrived and I felt it was aimed at the sort of audience who could easily be watching Love Island instead.

[chillibowl]

more than one team dominating (or not dominating as viewership also dropped off after Schumi's years of domination - loss of German and Italian audiences), i would have placed the overall drop in viewership of the late 2000s and onwards as directly tied to the movement behind a paywall in all the major F1 TV markets?

[seanyb505]

I think if there were 10 people at a race pre DTS and 100 people post DTS, DTS is probably responsible for 75 people. The niche fans haven't gone anywhere, and it remains to be seen if new niche fans are created.

One thing DTS did was show there can be demand for the series, and the series I think has worked to capitalize on that and try to improve things. So those remaining 15 people are some version of new fans seeing F1 become popular so they're stopping by to see what all the excitement is, and some version of pre DTS F1 fans that got bored, but are now stopping by to see what all the excitement is about and if it's as good as they remember. Again, long term fan status of those 15 remains to be seen.

Although, peak growth rates only have one way to go, and when the decline happens we'll be left having just watched 3-4 years of Red bull dominance. So 70 people lost interest in F1 as a fad, 15 more people didn't see enough to keep them interested, and now there's 15 niche fans at a track.

Either way, whether watching Netflix brought you to the track or not, it certainly created an environment to bring in a few more people.

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

But - if I may - having totally turned off F1, how far into the 2021 season did you become aware that there was a Verstappen/RedBull resurgence, and how did you become aware of this?

Good question and I should have been more specific. After spending much of my life around paddocks I did not become a hermit and, of course, any mention of 'racing', 'F1' etc would catch my interest so I would be aware of what was happening re RedBull and Verstappen. What was missing (and has now returned) was the need to look at the practice results on the F1 website at each GP; watch the qualifying; watch the C4 highlights.
It's good to be back.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Good question and I should have been more specific. After spending much of my life around paddocks I did not become a hermit and, of course, any mention of 'racing', 'F1' etc would catch my interest so I would be aware of what was happening re RedBull and Verstappen. What was missing (and has now returned) was the need to look at the practice results on the F1 website at each GP; watch the qualifying; watch the C4 highlights.
It's good to be back.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by morninggents

Having been interested and involved in motorsport all my life (my father, brother, myself and my son have all competed) and having attended my first GP at Silverstone in 1958 and several times since (last time in 2012) I can tell you that I was one of those people that totally turned off F1 during the interminably long period of Mercedes domination between 2013 and 2020. The Verstappen/RedBull resurgence in 2021 came as a breath of fresh air and the last two seasons have rekindled my interest. Seems I am not alone.
I don't know what DTS is and it certainly had no part in my new found passion.

I'm not as old as you young fella but similar background and similar outlook by the sound of it. Seeing some genuine competition rather than the Mercedes "cruise & collect" years, definitely rekindled a deeper passion for me.

Originally Posted by morninggents

Good question and I should have been more specific. After spending much of my life around paddocks I did not become a hermit and, of course, any mention of 'racing', 'F1' etc would catch my interest so I would be aware of what was happening re RedBull and Verstappen. What was missing (and has now returned) was the need to look at the practice results on the F1 website at each GP; watch the qualifying; watch the C4 highlights.
It's good to be back.

Similar here too. In Oz, most GPs are late Sunday night or into the wee hours of Monday morning. During the Mercedes domination years, I might watch the first couple of laps (in case there was some actual competition) but almost every race I'd then head off to bed, knowing that the finishing order would be the same as the order at the end of lap 2 and that the gap to the rest of the field would be huge, despite the Mercedes crew turning everything down.

When actual competition returned in 2021, so did I - now watch practice sessions (not all but most), don't miss qualifying and watch the whole race, am heading off to the AGP next weekend and like you it is good to be back.