[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by TF110

Teams press release with driver quotes. Not much joy from this race but some positives looking forward!

yeah, it has been a bad weekend for TMG for the sudden rain during the race and a lot of bad luck (let's say also that lapierre isn't the best driver of the world in wet conditions). Anyway #8 was however the best car in grid, in next races TMG just need to stay focus and do not make mistakes! #8 still leads championship and without mistakes will win for sure; #7 has to help the team to win manufacturers cup.

Little question: if #8 will win drivers championship but audi will win man. cup, who will use n.1 next year?

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

Little question: if #8 will win drivers championship but audi will win man. cup, who will use n.1 next year?

Should be the drivers champs right?

I've never really been interested in the WEC title battle - normally because there hasn't been one or it's been intra-team. This year is very different. I'm pulling for Toyota.

[Creep89]

But what about 24h Le Mans? It's like a single event.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Creep89

But what about 24h Le Mans? It's like a single event.

Not anymore it's round 3 of the championship.

[Brownj]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

yeah, it has been a bad weekend for TMG for the sudden rain during the race and a lot of bad luck (let's say also that lapierre isn't the best driver of the world in wet conditions). Anyway #8 was however the best car in grid, in next races TMG just need to stay focus and do not make mistakes! #8 still leads championship and without mistakes will win for sure; #7 has to help the team to win manufacturers cup.

Little question: if #8 will win drivers championship but audi will win man. cup, who will use n.1 next year?

I agree Lapierre hasn't shown much prowess in the rain, but his restart after the red flag was a sight to behold. I didn't think the car was going to stick, but he made it work. It was a monster restart trying to get back on the lead lap.

[LC2guy]

Toyota very unlikely to run a third car at Le Mans next year. Mistake in my opinion;

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116000

[TF110]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

yeah, it has been a bad weekend for TMG for the sudden rain during the race and a lot of bad luck (let's say also that lapierre isn't the best driver of the world in wet conditions). Anyway #8 was however the best car in grid, in next races TMG just need to stay focus and do not make mistakes! #8 still leads championship and without mistakes will win for sure; #7 has to help the team to win manufacturers cup.

Little question: if #8 will win drivers championship but audi will win man. cup, who will use n.1 next year?

I think theyll continue with #7 and #8. 7 is a "lucky number" for Toyota.

Originally Posted by LC2guy

Toyota very unlikely to run a third car at Le Mans next year. Mistake in my opinion;

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116000

I know this seems like news, but the quotes are lifted from a youtube interview 5 days ago on racer.com's Vasselon interview. Too bad they cant afford it themselves, but with the drivetrain coming from Japan, maybe they feel thats support enough?

[deggis]

Toyota F1 Racing, 400m/year. The horror, the horror.

[TF110]

Most of that was making TMG what it is. They also had huge sponsorship money from DENSO, Panasonic etc. You have to remember that the team had to build up from next to nothing. They didnt purchase an existing team. The Toyota board still has members that are nothing but profit seekers and are against motorsports. Getting those guys to give you more money is tough. Its sad, but Akio Toyoda is one of only a few within Toyota that likes racing.

[carbon_titanium]

Let's consider this: ok, 2015 TS040 will have a more advanced aero and an improved hybrid system, but the 2014 TS040 was able to run in 3.21 at le mans! simply a great performance if only the 2008 and 2010 908HDi was able to run under 3.20 in the recent past. What I mean is: why do not use 2 2015 TS040 and 1 2014 TS040 next year? TMG won't face extra costs because:
A - at least two 2014 TS040 already exist and spare parts too
B - no extra costs for futher development of a car already developed
C - at the end of this season, both 2014 TS040 will he however dismissed

the only extra costs would be the salary of 3 new drivers only for LM (good drivers like rossiter and caldarelli are already toyota work drivers) and more TMG-oreca personell for the third car.

[Alex Langheck]

They could afford to run both the WEC & WRC and still have change…. Once again F1 damages the other series. Really does annoy me.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

Let's consider this: ok, 2015 TS040 will have a more advanced aero and an improved hybrid system, but the 2014 TS040 was able to run in 3.21 at le mans! simply a great performance if only the 2008 and 2010 908HDi was able to run under 3.20 in the recent past. What I mean is: why do not use 2 2015 TS040 and 1 2014 TS040 next year? TMG won't face extra costs because:
A - at least two 2014 TS040 already exist and spare parts too
B - no extra costs for futher development of a car already developed
C - at the end of this season, both 2014 TS040 will he however dismissed

the only extra costs would be the salary of 3 new drivers only for LM (good drivers like rossiter and caldarelli are already toyota work drivers) and more TMG-oreca personell for the third car.

That's still a lot of extra cost.
Remember that you still need to run testing on the car and the drivers. You need to implement any regulation changes, and a lot of other factors, I can't find right now (I'm at school right now)

Running an extra 3rd car, even a already developed one, still need a significant budget. So if Toyota won't budget a 3rd car, then TMG have to find the budget through the sponsors or a team who run it (like Pescarolo and Oreca did for Peugeot)

[carbon_titanium]

I don't consider oreca in 2010 because it was basicly a fourth work car at le mans and in the LMS 2010 was supported officially by peugeot with drivers and engineers.
In 2011 too oreca was supported too, less than 2010, but it was.
Anyway my opinion is this: at the end of this season, what will be the fate of the two (or three considering also a test chassis) 2014 TS040? dismissed somewhere in japan or at the TMG facility and maybe available for future exibithions. Is unlikely that toyota will sell the cars to private collectors... to much secret hybrid technlogy that has to remain inside toyota.
Now consider also that beyond the cars, there are also spare parts available, what will be the extra cost to use it again one chassis at 2015 le mans? the 2014 ts040 doesn't need updates and there are no doubts about performances at le mans. TMG will keep on developing and testing the 2015 TS040 during the winter, will enter both 2015 TS040 at silverstone, spa and le mans, respecting budget limits. The only difference is that they will need 3 more drivers and more personnel to field an old 2014 TS040, that basicly is a car that doesn't need no futher updates or tests (just a shakedown to check if everything works) during the winter. And toyota won't need to produce spare parts because already have them. Le chant du cygne of a car without a future.
To me this is a good compromise to field 3 cars with a short budget.

[Acid09]

While I'm as disappointed about the lack of the third car as everyone, I've come to realize that this may be beneficial for the sport.

Toyota surely seems to be drip-feeding budget for TMG but at least it's on a long-term basis, TMG basically confirmed that even a WRC programme would likely not stop the LMP1 efforts.

I think for the WEC and everyone, this is better than them going all-out in a giant splurge for Le Mans for 1-2 years, win it and then pull the plug on it.

They seem to be interested in having a long-term presence in sports car racing, even if it may not give them the maximum results possible. A slightly underfunded manufacturer on the grid surely is better than no manufacturer at all.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Acid09

While I'm as disappointed about the lack of the third car as everyone, I've come to realize that this may be beneficial for the sport.

Toyota surely seems to be drip-feeding budget for TMG but at least it's on a long-term basis, TMG basically confirmed that even a WRC programme would likely not stop the LMP1 efforts.

I think for the WEC and everyone, this is better than them going all-out in a giant splurge for Le Mans for 1-2 years, win it and then pull the plug on it.

They seem to be interested in having a long-term presence in sports car racing, even if it may not give them the maximum results possible. A slightly underfunded manufacturer on the grid surely is better than no manufacturer at all.

While we're seeing the positives in this, there's another way of looking at this. I think we can all agree that Toyota have been competitive since they've arrived, and it's largely been down to bad luck - rather than the lack of a budget - which has been preventing them from achieving their goals.

Of course, increase the budget and car count, and you reduce the risk of bad luck ruining your race, and that's a luxury that Nissan, Audi and possibly Porsche seem willing to afford. But surely Toyota's efforts have proved that it's just that - a luxury.

If Toyota won Le Mans next year (and how on earth could anybody rule that out?), that would send very strong messages to a.) other prospective manufacturers, b.) the organisers and c.) us, the fans. With the ever-increasing manufacturer involvement there is a real danger that budgets could spiral out of control, but nobody can throw that accusation at Toyota.

A win for Toyota would be a big boost for the current set of regulations.

[Deleted]

If/when they bring 2 cars again - looking at the winning chances purely numerically and ignoring the rest

2012 - 33% (2 vs 4)
2013 - 40% (2 vs 3)
2014 - 28% (2 vs 5)
2015 - 18-22% (2 vs 7 / 2 vs 8 / 2 vs 9)

Suppose there is always slightest of slight chances for fourth Audi again if they feel the need, which could affect as well

[hondafan37]

Toyota Working Towards 8MJ Hybrid, No Plans for 3rd LM24 Entry

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/t...ntry-for-lm24/

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

the only extra costs would be the salary of 3 new drivers only for LM (good drivers like rossiter and caldarelli are already toyota work drivers) and more TMG-oreca personell for the third car.

And spares, and tires, and fuel, and crew lodging, and food, and shipping, and travel for the expanded crew ... and it still can't be all that much to run a third car if that car already exists.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Toyota Working Towards 8MJ Hybrid, No Plans for 3rd LM24 Entry

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/t...ntry-for-lm24/

There is also an article from motorsport-total.com covering a similar story.

Interestingly, the author provides a possible explanation for the difference in performance between the #7 and #8 cars at COTA, namely that the #8 car was allegedly using newly-installed supercapacitor units and that the performance of those supercapacitor units appears to decrease with usage/mileage.

[TF110]

A third 2014 TS040 wouldnt work. Theyre designing a new car for next year and probably doing 8mj. This year's car is 6mj, so it wouldn't fit within the rules. Vasselon states theyll be focusing on underbody aero. I assume theyll be maximizing the rules in the front area with the tuning vanes and the brake 'wings'. I bet theyll look at the dome 'handlebar' solution as well.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by TF110

A third 2014 TS040 wouldnt work. Theyre designing a new car for next year and probably doing 8mj. This year's car is 6mj, so it wouldn't fit within the rules. Vasselon states theyll be focusing on underbody aero. I assume theyll be maximizing the rules in the front area with the tuning vanes and the brake 'wings'. I bet theyll look at the dome 'handlebar' solution as well.

How I dread that happening!
To me a Sportscar is a 3 year car, and not a race 1 year and throw away, like F1.

[TF110]

Not a throwaway if theyre keeping the same tub, which was said btw.

[Japanese Samurai]

Cartoons dealing with Toyota LM24 will start this winter in Japanese magazine.
This is a part of the promotion of Toyota.
Yes. Toyota will participate in LM24 also in 2015.
http://ms.toyota.co.jp/jp/wec/specia...s-cartoon.html

[MyNameIsNigel]

I wonder if opting for the 8 MJ option next year is not overkill. The current TS040 is already diabolically fast. Wouldn't it be better for Toyota to optimize the current package for next year, rather than investing too much in re-designing part of the car, especially considering that they have a "limited" budget ?

In order for the 8 MJ option to be viable, Toyota will apparently need to invest quite a bit in making the car lighter to accommodate for the additional weight of the 8 MJ hybrid architecture. Besides, it is unclear if Toyota can stick with the current supercapacitor units. According to reports, they may need to look for alternate energy storage solutions, which may be risky reliability-wise.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Cartoons dealing with Toyota LM24 will start this winter in Japanese magazine.
This is a part of the promotion of Toyota.
Yes. Toyota will participate in LM24 also in 2015.
http://ms.toyota.co.jp/jp/wec/specia...s-cartoon.html

I am looking forward to seeing the first TS040-related manga