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Old 15 Jan 2022, 19:34 (Ref:4093890)   #16
crmalcolm
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Originally Posted by Speed-King View Post
Compare that to how badly some teams were out in the wilderness with their self-built cars in the BTC-T and S2000 era. Back then, you basically needed a crack outfit like 888, RLM or Dynamics to come up with a properly competitive car, whereas now even small teams like Cicely can "develop" a car on their own.
Yes - and I think it is a lot better now.

Since the introduction of NGTC, the following teams have prepared a car that took the Drivers' title:

BMR, WSR, Dynamics and Eurotech.

The following teams have prepared a car that took the Teams' title:

BMR, WSR and Dynamics.

When you consider that the Eurotech car was designed, and supported by Dynamics, it shows that the best teams will still take the titles.
In the independents' though, title-winning cars have also come from:

Speedworks, AmD and Motorbase.

So to that end - NGTC allows the 'small' teams to have success and compete at the sharp end of the grid. Isn't that a lot better than the mid-'90s where manufacturers ruled the show and independent, smaller teams were destined to never taste success?
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Old 15 Jan 2022, 21:20 (Ref:4093903)   #17
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AIUI, the common subframes are mostly a cost-saving measure. Apparently, designing a good race suspension for a production-based race car is expensive if you are allowed to move the suspension pick-up points and complicated if you aren't. With the common subframes, all of that is not needed anymore and it's probably what allows relatively small teams to develop competitive cars on their own.

Compare that to how badly some teams were out in the wilderness with their self-built cars in the BTC-T and S2000 era. Back then, you basically needed a crack outfit like 888, RLM or Dynamics to come up with a properly competitive car, whereas now even small teams like Cicely can "develop" a car on their own.
I understand the reasoning and the logic behind that premise, but how is it then with TCR, small teams can design and develop suspension layouts without using a spec subframe? To my knowledge, TCR doesn’t use them?
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Old 15 Jan 2022, 21:48 (Ref:4093907)   #18
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I understand the reasoning and the logic behind that premise, but how is it then with TCR, small teams can design and develop suspension layouts without using a spec subframe? To my knowledge, TCR doesn’t use them?
I think, because TCR cars are designed and built in the first instance by the manufacturer or an affiliated associate and then sold to customers, alongside the BoP used in TCR.
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Old 16 Jan 2022, 09:42 (Ref:4093972)   #19
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I understand the reasoning and the logic behind that premise, but how is it then with TCR, small teams can design and develop suspension layouts without using a spec subframe? To my knowledge, TCR doesn’t use them?
Except for the Alfa, there are no (mainstream) TCR-cars left that are not manufacturer-developed or at least funded. All other privateer-builds (Renault, KIA, Subaru) have pretty much fallen by the wayside. And I'd argue that Romeo Ferraris (the guys behind the Alfa) are actually a quite capable team; they also developed their own Mercedeses for the old Italian Superstars series.
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Old 17 Jan 2022, 23:51 (Ref:4094186)   #20
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Comparing a TCR car to NGTC is like comparing a guy Martin custom race bike to a BMW S1000R. They both do the same thing.... but achieve it in very different ways.

I don't think it's been mentioned.....but the other major aim of NGTC was to remove any reliance on OEM car manufacturers and their partners. This was something that has killed any number of technical regs in the past when manufacturers pulled out.
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Old 18 Jan 2022, 12:29 (Ref:4094260)   #21
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I don't think it's been mentioned.....but the other major aim of NGTC was to remove any reliance on OEM car manufacturers and their partners. This was something that has killed any number of technical regs in the past when manufacturers pulled out.
ironically this happened in reverse in British GT , in the 90s, and early 00s there were lots of self made GT cars in the series often quite succesful and then it started to become just customers of big manufacturers like it is today
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Old 18 Jan 2022, 12:41 (Ref:4094261)   #22
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I don't think it's been mentioned.....but the other major aim of NGTC was to remove any reliance on OEM car manufacturers and their partners. This was something that has killed any number of technical regs in the past when manufacturers pulled out.
I don't think the organisers wanted to explicitly say they were removing the reliance on manufacturers (although it is a good thing to do so), and so it was veiled in the line:

'Reduce reliance on WTCC/S2000 equipment, due to increasing costs/complexity and concerns as to its future sustainability/direction'
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Old 20 Feb 2022, 19:20 (Ref:4099532)   #23
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I'm convinced NGTC has worked, enough said.
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Old 21 Feb 2022, 09:25 (Ref:4099591)   #24
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Considering it's been around for a decade and we still have a full grid, I'd say so.
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Old 23 Feb 2022, 20:31 (Ref:4099936)   #25
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Some former teams bemoan the control supplier aspect in the way that it forces parts prices to stay at a level higher than would be if similar parts were sourced elsewhere without correct TOCA logos.
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Old 2 Mar 2022, 09:20 (Ref:4100844)   #26
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Some former teams bemoan the control supplier aspect in the way that it forces parts prices to stay at a level higher than would be if similar parts were sourced elsewhere without correct TOCA logos.
Whilst that is true it does also limit costs rising by preventing an 'arms race' in component development/use.
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Old 2 Mar 2022, 10:03 (Ref:4100863)   #27
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Whilst that is true it does also limit costs rising by preventing an 'arms race' in component development/use.
I agree with this take on it.

Consider the following scenario:

Component X has to meet certain criteria. Supplier A can deliver this for £1k, and it gives a specific level of performance.
Team Dynamics think there is the potential for a performance gain to be made with a 'better' component, and spend £2k with a different supplier.
WSR see the marginal gains that TD have achieved, and seek a further supplier who delivers a version at £3k.
Motorbase now evaluate that WSR's supplied component is even better than the TD fitted item, and seek an alternative to the original component they have for £1k. An alternative upgrade is identified, but this has a cost of £4k.

Eventually, we have a situation where teams are spending exponentially increasing amounts to gain marginal performance enhancements over their rivals. Meanwhile, other teams on the grid do not have the budget for this and so are left behind with the base standard component at £1k.
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Old 2 Mar 2022, 16:06 (Ref:4100934)   #28
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Single supplier makes scrutineering also simpler.
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