[Rumours] Groundhog Day’s Hamilton vs Masi - P45s at the ready?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

A list of the teams and drivers who feel that way, and their stated reasons, might be instructive and give rise to thoughts about their motivation.

In the reports above and on previous pages

In terms of specific drivers i dont know, im just repeating reports from a reputable source.

amongst them

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/wh...e-fia/7273507/

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Whether a racing driver chooses to continue racing has zero relation to who the race director is. The alternative notion is just ridiculous.

An interesting read

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...banned-from-f1

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Masi is an excellent race director who should remain. To do otherwise would be most absurd!

There are better ones who make more consistant, fair decisions who command the respect of the drivers and teams.

Brian Barnhart, Kyle Novak from Indycar
Edwardo from WEC
Beaux Barfield in IMSA
Stuart Higgs in BSB

An excellent race director is one who doesnt make numerous controvertial decisions, flip flops which rules or corners they want to enforce etc etc. Lets be honest here, the last race this year was only one such incident in a string of incidents

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Teams and manufacturers holding the sport to ransom….

… lol well that’s nothing new! It’s a tactic that’s been employed in F1 for decades. I’ve lost count how many times Marko has threatened to quit F1, Ferrari, Break away series, The turbo era etc etc etc

If people are pushing to get rid of Masi however, I doubt it’s just Mercedes’, as previous reports he has lost the confidence of several teams and drivers

Marko is neither a team owner or a team principal.Think of him as a crazy old uncle with a pit pass.
Yes he has been Dieter’s best friend even before energy drinks were even a glimpse in Dieter’s eye but if you think Dieter would take his advice over that of Christian Horner you have consumed too much of something.
If individual drivers and team owners -making the big assumption that their opinions are what determines it-think they can get out of saying whether they personally gave Masi the thumbs up or thumbs down in whatever decision happens they too are kidding themselves.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Alan52

.......would take his advice over that of Christian Horner you have consumed too much of something.

Probably Red Bull

[wnut]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Masi is an excellent race director who should remain. To do otherwise would be most absurd!



Whether a racing driver chooses to continue racing has zero relation to who the race director is. The alternative notion is just ridiculous.

Hamilton is on the entry list, if not then Mercedes would likely arrange a deal for Ocon which would allow the promising Piastri to make his Grand Prix debut.

Agreed.

[Aysedasi]

Not by me....

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

A list of the teams and drivers who feel that way, and their stated reasons, might be instructive and give rise to thoughts about their motivation.

Great idea Tony, also give them an insight into which rules require sorting out.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by wnut

Great idea Tony, also give them an insight into which rules require sorting out.

Im not sure many rules need sorting, more importantly a consistent application of rules is the important thing here, which is what has lead to the most animosity from all sides this las couple of years

- End of pitlane line, Hamilton penalised in russia, Charles not in Spa, Masi said race directors notes were clear, but infact they werent because he had to clarify and then reinforce for the next GP - inconsistancy

- Track limits changing from each circuit and even several times during the weekend - inconsistancy

- Consistent application of crowding a driver off the track, has been all over the place with the 'let them race' rubbish - inconsistancy

- Consistent application of penalties, which has been all over the place (or at least percieved to be this year) - inconsistancy

- Tyre changed under red flag

- Red flags in the first place...way too many, not needed, a safety car could have easily been used at several times in the last couple of years - inconsistancy, percieved just to be used to spice up the show

- Impliment Indycar style closed pit lanes so you can only stop once the train is together or something like that, to remove any unfair advantage of cars behind, or no pitting under safety car at all.

- More accountability of the race directors and stewards decision. Adopt a DOPS style briefing in the week after the race where a video is put online, detailing the stewards decision, their reasoning and how it differs to other incidents to help fans and teams work out how they have come to that decision. It will remove animosity and the perception of bias....and if there is bias, then there is nowhere to hide.


Above all transparency and consistency are key here, it will defuse the majority of animosity between teams, drivers and fans who feel like theyve been hard done by. Thats where i think Masi has mostly gone wrong over the last few years. Whiting gave considered justification and the drivers, teams and fans trusted his judgment. Masi has done completely the opposite through his actions.

Maybe thats not completely Masis fault, some can be levelled at F1 and the FIA for either not supporting him or giving us more information than needed like team radio which just ramps up tensions etc.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Masi is an excellent race director who should remain. To do otherwise would be most absurd!

Agree with you completely.

Originally Posted by wnut

Agreed.

Yep

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Not by me....

Agreement from me with V8 Fireworks and wnut.

[BTCC frog]

I don't think Masi is an excellent race director. He made a few questionable decisions in 2021 and then what happened in Abu Dhabi was just shocking. I don't think it is fair for me to call for him to be fired considering we don't know all the information but I think it is right that it is being investigated. I don't like that he seems to prioritise entertainment too much over sporting integrity, but I suspect those are his instructions from Liberty so wouldn't necessarily blame him for that.

The news that would make me most happy going into the new season would be the decision to scrap this bizarre agreement that the race should always finish under green flags if at all possible. Or at the very least, that we should have rolling starts after red flags instead of standing starts.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Im not sure many rules need sorting, more importantly a consistent application of rules is the important thing here, which is what has lead to the most animosity from all sides this las couple of years

Agree that consistency (as much as possible in any case) is what any sporting judiciary needs but there's an element of needing to be realistic on expectations too - because in reality, very few situations are actually the same as each other, particularly if we're talking about on-track, driver standard type situations. We also need to be aware that often teams or drivers will claim "inconsistency" to suit their own positions - quote from a recent article in Autosport rings true here:

Like all sports, motorsport is a contest where believing exactly what is uttered by the competitors is most unwise, given the advantages to be gained by teams and drivers concealing weaknesses or hiding specific gains.

You've raised a number of good points, so I'll give my thoughts on each one:

- End of pitlane line, Hamilton penalised in russia, Charles not in Spa, Masi said race directors notes were clear, but infact they werent because he had to clarify and then reinforce for the next GP - inconsistancy

Disagree with you on this one. The RD notes WERE clear, which is why MB was penalised in Russia (Stewards' decision to penalise, not RD by the way) as if the notes weren't clear, the Stewards would not have been able to apply the penalty. Different race, different circuit, different RD notes for Spa - so no infringement by Ferrari. The reinforcement was clearly to remind those not concentrating on how the RD notes work and how they DO vary at times from event to event, due to differences from circuit to circuit. Consistent methodology & given that only one team got it wrong across all the exits of all the pit lanes across all the events this year (& apologised to their driver) the process is clearly understood by the teams generally.

- Track limits changing from each circuit and even several times during the weekend - inconsistancy

Personally I really don't like the way track limits are dealt with in some locations only but of course they are different from circuit to circuit, as no two circuits are the same and of course at times they can be adjusted during the course of a race weekend if drivers can be seen to be taking the mick - with attendant potential safety implications that absolutely can't be ignored. Consistent approach but inconsistencies from circuit to circuit because the circuits themselves are inconsistent (thankfully). Bear in mind too that the Stewards may well be the ones making the calls on changing track limit tolerances during a race weekend - as they have the power to.

- Consistent application of crowding a driver off the track, has been all over the place with the 'let them race' rubbish - inconsistancy

The "let them race rubbish" was specifically what the teams (and fans) asked for but agree that it has appeared to be inconsistent at times - notwithstanding that no two situations are truly identical. Bear in mind though, that the decisions on these matters rest with the Stewards, not the RD.

- Consistent application of penalties, which has been all over the place (or at least percieved to be this year) - inconsistancy

Not anything to do with RD - totally, 100% Stewards' decisions.

- Tyre changed under red flag

Allowed under FIA codes, not just in F1 - personally I don't like it unless tyres are damaged but it IS part of the red flag process and shows that the RD is doing exactly what he should be doing in allowing it.

- Red flags in the first place...way too many, not needed, a safety car could have easily been used at several times in the last couple of years - inconsistancy, percieved just to be used to spice up the show

Throwing the red flag IS most definitely an RD call and is very much a judgement call - sometimes a fine line between what is suitable for SC and where a red flag is more appropriate - personally I've seen the reasoning behind each red flag call over the last few years and have no issue with any of them. It is impossible to be truly consistent in approach on red flags as every incident is different, sometimes only subtle differences but for sure they ARE different.

- Impliment Indycar style closed pit lanes so you can only stop once the train is together or something like that, to remove any unfair advantage of cars behind, or no pitting under safety car at all.

There are many pros & cons to this approach, I'd be OK with it up to a point but on balance I'm not convinced that it would be any better across a racing season. Not the RD's decision on whether or not this rule is brought in though.

- More accountability of the race directors and stewards decision. Adopt a DOPS style briefing in the week after the race where a video is put online, detailing the stewards decision, their reasoning and how it differs to other incidents to help fans and teams work out how they have come to that decision. It will remove animosity and the perception of bias....and if there is bias, then there is nowhere to hide.

Never heard of DOPS, no idea what that is but understand what you mean - this type of approach would be good in my view but is not an RD call - would need to be a decision made higher up within the FIA.

Above all transparency and consistency are key here, it will defuse the majority of animosity between teams, drivers and fans who feel like theyve been hard done by. Thats where i think Masi has mostly gone wrong over the last few years. Whiting gave considered justification and the drivers, teams and fans trusted his judgment. Masi has done completely the opposite through his actions.

Agree with your first sentence, not your second. The approach taken by both Charlie and Michael is very, very similar and in both cases, very little of it is seen or heard by the public. I clearly recall the point about half way through the year when the Sky crew made the point that the FIA had dropped the restriction on interviewing the RD - prior to that, the public didn't get the insight (again, not the RD's call - higher up in the FIA). When the RD did interviews, he was calm, clear and on point, just the way Charlie would be.

Maybe thats not completely Masis fault, some can be levelled at F1 and the FIA for either not supporting him or giving us more information than needed like team radio which just ramps up tensions etc.

The only item on your list that can be laid solely at the RD's door is making the call on whether or not to throw the red flag. The rest of the items that you list are either Stewards' decisions, FIA hierarchy decisions or decisions that at most only partially involve the RD.

[Alan52]

The point that most of the things being listed as inconsistencies are stewards calls and a lot of the others are just following the existing rules show that pinning all this stuff on Masi is just looking for a convenient scapegoat.
Also most of the things people are complaining about are in the realm of Hamilton v Verstappen.The number of incidents involving other drivers is no different to any other previous year including those pre Masi.The intensity of that battle unmatched since Senna v Prost put immense pressure on Masi and stewards.
Finally wondering how much Toto was one of those principals pushing for the “let them race” green flag finishes at the start of the year.His volcanic tantrum at Masi’s “it’s a motor race ,let them race” has me wondering if that was a line Toto used back at the start of the year and he didn’t like it being thrown back at him.

[bathurst77]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Hamilton is on the entry list, if not then Mercedes would likely arrange a deal for Ocon which would allow the promising Piastri to make his Grand Prix debut.

---------------------------------

im 99.9% sure Lewis will be on the grid come round one (being overseen by a new race director), but out of interest if not, why Occon?

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Hamilton is on the entry list, if not then Mercedes would likely arrange a deal for Ocon which would allow the promising Piastri to make his Grand Prix debut.

---------------------------------

im 99.9% sure Lewis will be on the grid come round one (being overseen by a new race director), but out of interest if not, why Occon?

Wishful Australian thinking I think.Ocon is contracted to Renault for 2 more years.How would it possibly in their interest to let him go?
Mercedes would have to look around teams they supply engines to if they are looking to make a deal.Like you I’m 99% sure Hamilton will be on the grid.
I’m guessing Renault’s plan for Piastri was to replace a retiring Alonso at the end of 2022.Alonso’s spectacular form in the second half of last season has thrown a spinner into those plans.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Alan52

The point that most of the things being listed as inconsistencies are stewards calls and a lot of the others are just following the existing rules show that pinning all this stuff on Masi is just looking for a convenient scapegoat.
Also most of the things people are complaining about are in the realm of Hamilton v Verstappen.The number of incidents involving other drivers is no different to any other previous year including those pre Masi.The intensity of that battle unmatched since Senna v Prost put immense pressure on Masi and stewards.
Finally wondering how much Toto was one of those principals pushing for the “let them race” green flag finishes at the start of the year.His volcanic tantrum at Masi’s “it’s a motor race ,let them race” has me wondering if that was a line Toto used back at the start of the year and he didn’t like it being thrown back at him.

I specifically didn’t mention max v Lewis as not to be drawn down that route, those inconsistencies have applied to most this last couple of years.

Volcanic tantrum? Being thrown back at him? Firstly I don’t see that as the case, but if you’re correct then it’s no way for a race director to act, and more reason for him to be replaced.

[S griffin]

The problem with Masi is too often last season he seemed to be influenced by certain team bosses. He needs a bigger backbone and make sure teams know where they stand with him. Maybe he also needs a more experienced race director alongside him to help him

[E.B]

Originally Posted by S griffin

The problem with Masi is too often last season he seemed to be influenced by certain team bosses. He needs a bigger backbone and make sure teams know where they stand with him. Maybe he also needs a more experienced race director alongside him to help him

I thought they had already said there will be no Pit boss > RD communication permitted this year.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by E.B

I thought they had already said there will be no Pit boss > RD communication permitted this year.

great!

i cant wait until the pendulum swings the other way and people start saying things like 'coaches should be allowed to work the refs much as they do in every other sport...F1 is not a sport'

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Tourer

...The "let them race rubbish" was specifically what the teams (and fans) asked for but agree that it has appeared to be inconsistent at times - notwithstanding that no two situations are truly identical. Bear in mind though, that the decisions on these matters rest with the Stewards, not the RD....

really well balanced post imo! just quoted one small part because i think that really covers it for me.

would add, that at this point replacing the RD at the behest of some of the team principles may make the next person in line that much more beholden to the team principles.

for a long time the mantra here (for car design philosophy anyways) was that you cant let the teams make the rules. doing so would be akin to letting the lunatics run the asylum.

would we not face a similar problem if we also let the teams decided who the race officials are?

[E.B]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

would we not face a similar problem if we also let the teams decided who the race officials are?

.... or who they are not.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by E.B

.... or who they are not.

lol exactly!

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

really well balanced post imo! just quoted one small part because i think that really covers it for me.

would add, that at this point replacing the RD at the behest of some of the team principles may make the next person in line that much more beholden to the team principles.

for a long time the mantra here (for car design philosophy anyways) was that you cant let the teams make the rules. doing so would be akin to letting the lunatics run the asylum.

would we not face a similar problem if we also let the teams decided who the race officials are?

What is needed is a Ecclestone type figure running it - or maybe Eccelstone. For all his supposed faults he ran a tight ship

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

What is needed is a Ecclestone type figure running it - or maybe Eccelstone. For all his supposed faults he ran a tight ship

We complained about him when he was in charge. I think we are remembering him a bit with rose colored glasses right now. I think the real problem is not so much the upper tier of leadership and that we are just missing Charlie Whiting. His style, level of knowledge, experience, respect, etc. is a tough situation for anyone to try to step into and replace. If Charlie hadn't passed and was still in place, I expect things would have been handled differently (right or wrong) and this would maybe be a non-topic. I wouldn't want Masi's job. Who in their right mind would take it up now given the level of expectations everyone would have. Maybe only someone with a huge level of self confidence which might create similar issues all over again.

Richard

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I wouldn't want Masi's job. Who in their right mind would take it up now given the level of expectations everyone would have. Maybe only someone with a huge level of self confidence which might create similar issues all over again.

I'd give it a go. I press buttons for a living and spend hours talking on radios to shadowy voices at weekends for about half the year.

I know a little bit about racing too!