[Rules] 2022 and beyond... What will be the impact of the new regulations?

[ScotsBrutesFan]

I'm not going to re-quote some of the suggestions, but to pick a few...

Lapped car getting to unlap at the end of a safety car period....how about having the lapped cars retain their running order, but they drop back down the line to be behind the last car on the lead lap, if a car was 2 laps down, it would go behind the last of those 1 lap down... sounds complicated but in essence it's just ordering the field from 1-20 again. 1-12 on lead lap, 13-18 one lap down and 19 & 20 2 laps down.
It could all be done by instruction to move off the racing line to allow the lead cars through and to tuck back in at the right time.

If they want to insist on a getting their lap back scenario, how about 2 laps prior to a rolling restart, the safety car takes the lead lap cars through the pitlane, with the lapped cars continuing on track, and at the end of the next lap the safety car comes in. It provides a separation efficiently rather than cars "overtaking each other and the safety car"

I'd actually go the opposite to removing the 2 tyre rule, and actually make the running of all three mandatory in the race. 2 reasons, ... 1 it forces 2 pitstops and the perils that can entail, and 2 there would be strategy on how best to get performance from all three compounds Would undercutting work, would it force a competitor onto a different compound earlier than they might have wanted etc..
With this the teams would have the option on which tyre to start with.

There needs to be a distinction between team penalties and driver penalties.
For Driver penalties I'm fine with grid places or time/pit stop penalties. But there must be clear consistency
For teams and Power Unit components I'd hit them where it hurts .. no not the wallet, but with constructor points. I feel Power units will suddenly becomes a lot more reliable if a new part is going to cost points.

Red flags and restarts... I'm thinking red flag in first 10% of race laps then standing start. To clarify that, I'd say the incident has to happen in the first 10 %, just to cover a situation where they may call a safety car initially and then red flag it.
Any red flag afterwards should be a rolling single file restart. (subject to safety considerations).
If it's a restart in the final 10% of race laps then the race must run for a minimum of 3 green flag laps... if that means giving the teams a extra few kilos of fuel at the start so be it. If the teams then want to take the chance of running less ... that's their choice they know the risk.
The race notes for each weekend would clearly state which lap constitutes the 10% mark from the start and the finish.


Just my tuppence worth for discussion

[Richard C]

Much of these recent posts are more about how to fix, vs what will happen next season. But I will play along for a bit.

Lapped cars... no strong opinion on how to fix, but rules need to be clarified.

DRS/required tires... I would like to see DRS removed (or morphed into active aero that allowed free use vs zones and activation rules) and free tire choice. However, both are artificial constructs to create more unpredictable race results. So they will remain until something better comes along, or the new tech specs negates the need.

Power unit penalties applying to constructor points, but not driver qualifying results (or any penalty to the driver)... This opens up a Pandora's box of ways to exploit. A good example is if a team has a wealth of constructor points, but is in a tight driver championship battle. Just drop in fresh units take the constructor point hit, help ensure driver championship. Fans would not be happy. I am sure there may be other ways to game it. Frankly, I think the current penalty system works pretty well.

Richard

[broadrun96]

Yeah, I'm of the mindset if we want to call it a team effort then every part of the team has to matter, and the engine is part of it.

I'm also of the Indy has it right, allow X amount of passing booster(for lack of a better term) defense or offense I don't care. But the current within 1 sec you get to zoom by needs a tweak, hopefully the rules get it right and it can be dropped. But if not a tweak is in order

[E.B]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Yeah, I'm of the mindset if we want to call it a team effort then every part of the team has to matter, and the engine is part of it.

I'm also of the Indy has it right, allow X amount of passing booster(for lack of a better term) defense or offense I don't care. But the current within 1 sec you get to zoom by needs a tweak, hopefully the rules get it right and it can be dropped. But if not a tweak is in order

The problem with that is that F1 dont do as others have done regardless of how well it works.... they prefer to introduce something 'unique' they thought of regardless of how difficult and confusing it might be.

[wnut]

In the spirit of breaking what isn't broken.

Mercedes to exit Formula E.

https://the-race.com/formula-e/merce...rioritises-f1/

So much for the future of motor racing.

[Adam43]

Isn’t this really old news? Obviously something to warm the hearts of those that it warms in these cold winter months.

Porsche’s comments offer some hints of a road car manufacturer thoughts on the state of the category from their perspective. https://www.autosport.com/formula-e/...ula-e/6995677/

Perfect for a Jaguar type which is interested in just being there, but not for a manufacturer who develops stuff.

Don’t forget the National and International Single Seater sub forum if you are interested in discussing Formula E.

[Taxi645]

A point I made in the final GP thread:

Before deciding on how to handle race finishes when there has been an incident in the last few laps, one must first think about if it is okay if F1 collectively says we don't want the race/season to end bheind the safety car. Which, however understandable or perhaps even desirable, is an entertainment call and not a sporting call.

If we all accept that is a desirable outcome, we then should not be surprised if the actions then taken by race control can then not 100% be sport based alone. There unavoidably will be a significant element of entertainment.

So to say we don't want to end behind the safety car but do want it to based on very stricktly defined sporting regulations, is too ask the impossible of the race director.

In my view the opposite should happen, if we don't want the season/race to end behind the SC the RD, within a well defined rule framework, should be given plenty of freedom how to best balance sporting and entertainment considerations in the best and fairest possible way.

Sack him if he does a poor job too often. If you want things done purely on sporting rules then you also have to accept the race/season end behind the SC. It's one or the other.

[S griffin]

To be honest I'd rather see a season end disappointingly under the SC, than manipulated like it was in Abu Dhabi. After a season of great racing, no one really should complain if it ends a bit anti climatic

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by S griffin

To be honest I'd rather see a season end disappointingly under the SC, than manipulated like it was in Abu Dhabi. After a season of great racing, no one really should complain if it ends a bit anti climatic

Yes, I think that is the purer way to look at it. The problem is, that's not the approach F1 chose for 2021 and it seems from the viewers/money side of things they were right. I don't expect that direction to change for 2022 or beyond.

The thing that mainly went wrong in my view, is that entertainment was asked to be given more consideration, but the sporting regulations did not evolve along with it and remained the same, putting the race director in an impossible position.

Surely things could've been done better even within the current sporting rules, but to sack Masi and not tackle the above misalignment would be ill-judged and destined to produce similar problems in the future.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

A point I made in the final GP thread:

Before deciding on how to handle race finishes when there has been an incident in the last few laps, one must first think about if it is okay if F1 collectively says we don't want the race/season to end bheind the safety car. Which, however understandable or perhaps even desirable, is an entertainment call and not a sporting call.

If we all accept that is a desirable outcome, we then should not be surprised if the actions then taken by race control can then not 100% be sport based alone. There unavoidably will be a significant element of entertainment.

So to say we don't want to end behind the safety car but do want it to based on very stricktly defined sporting regulations, is too ask the impossible of the race director.

In my view the opposite should happen, if we don't want the season/race to end behind the SC the RD, within a well defined rule framework, should be given plenty of freedom how to best balance sporting and entertainment considerations in the best and fairest possible way.

Sack him if he does a poor job too often. If you want things done purely on sporting rules then you also have to accept the race/season end behind the SC. It's one or the other.

I think that Masi was tasked to finish the race under green conditions and he took the steps necessary to accomplish this directive. I think that the whole point is to go motor racing and that was accomplished. He succeeded in achieving the objective both safely and effectively. The FIA justified the decision on appeal, reasonably imo, and it is a pity that Mercedes' bureaucratic approach failed to win a motor race. It is motor racing and the unexpected can happen, but the overriding principle should be to go racing.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by wnut

I think that Masi was tasked to finish the race under green conditions and he took the steps necessary to accomplish this directive. I think that the whole point is to go motor racing and that was accomplished. He succeeded in achieving the objective both safely and effectively. The FIA justified the decision on appeal, reasonably imo, and it is a pity that Mercedes' bureaucratic approach failed to win a motor race. It is motor racing and the unexpected can happen, but the overriding principle should be to go racing.

Lets not forget as "Wnut" states, that every team from Mercedes down voted that the Race Director should do it seems anything possible to avoid an SC led finish and the target was to achieve a racing finish.

As we witnessed in Abu Dhabi the manner in which the racing finish was achieved needs fine tuning..... Maybe those lapped cars between first and second etc should just drop to the back of the unlapped cars and be credited with the lap rather than for them to pass the leader and try to play catch up.

Dropping behind the lead lap cars will also avoid those lapped cars unlapping themselves as per the current rules, then arriving unlapped at the tail, but with the advantage of tyres warmed by the catch up lap, thus giving them an unfair advantage over those at the rear of those lead lap cars that have been circulating behind the SC.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by wnut

I think that Masi was tasked to finish the race under green conditions and he took the steps necessary to accomplish this directive.

He also took an extra and unnecessary step which was to release only the cars between Ham and Ver. Had he gone green with all the cars where they were then I would agree with you. Given the choice between unlapping everyone and finishing under yellow, or unlapping no-one and finishing under green, the latter would be preferable.

Mercedes would have been left raging at their misfortune (assuming Ver still made it past, as he almost certainly would have done). But frankly that would balance out their fortune at Imola and elsewhere and they would have had no cause for complaint.

[Taxi645]

As said, even within the existing rules clearly things could've been done better and more fairly, but the misalignment between wanting an entertaining finish under green and the current sporting regulations limiting the race director in achieving that in a good and fair way will still be a problem.

Things that could change to give the race director more options in the final laps:

- Being able to let lapped car fall back instead of going round and just credit the lap as suggested (safer, quicker, no warm tyres advantages as said above).
- Being able to call the red flag if the race director feels that is the best solution to end under green, even there is no strict safety requirement as is now.
- In an extreme case, the possibly to add laps to the race in order to have a proper racing finish.
- Have the freedom to dictate exactly when the SC will come in, in order to have an extra racing lap.
- Other options?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by E.B

The problem with that is that F1 dont do as others have done regardless of how well it works.... they prefer to introduce something 'unique' they thought of regardless of how difficult and confusing it might be.

F1 borrowed pitstops from across the pond, whether that be fuel and or tyre stops and the use of the option tyre. So I think it's more a matter of, we will do as others have done to a certain extent but we will also introduce something 'unique' so it's ours, like the Q2 tyre rule. That 'uniqueness' though tends to over complicate things. Does F1 really need all those compounds?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by E.B

Lets not forget as "Wnut" states, that every team from Mercedes down voted that the Race Director should do it seems anything possible to avoid an SC led finish and the target was to achieve a racing finish.

IMO, to do "anything possible" means within the written regulations.

Also, as has been continually said, there was a way to finish the race under green within the regulations - which was to not release the lapped cars.

Masi did not try to make the race finish under green. He tried to manufacturer an exciting finish to the race. These are different things.

[chillibowl]

and if he had left the lapped cars in play and there was an accident? a likely and entirely predictable outcome for both restarts and scenarios where you have aggressive drivers looking to win a title over a very short distance.

anyways, i actually like the notion of shortening the SC period by just limiting it to removing the cars most likely to interfere with those looking to finish on the podium....shame that this was not part of the rules/the accepted procedure going into this race.

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

and if he had left the lapped cars in play and there was an accident?

That would have been the drivers' fault. Or no-one's fault. Overtaking lapped cars (and being overtaken as a lapped car) is part of the event. In practice I suspect the cars in question would have got out of the way pretty quickly, but it would have cost Verstappen just a little time. It would have made for even more of a grandstand finish, ironically, than the choice Masi made, since that choice made the result inevitable. So Masi even failed at what he was trying to achieve.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

IMO, to do "anything possible" means within the written regulations.

Also, as has been continually said, there was a way to finish the race under green within the regulations - which was to not release the lapped cars.

Masi did not try to make the race finish under green. He tried to manufacturer an exciting finish to the race. These are different things.

I dont think there are many that believe the outcome was arrived at in a satisfactory manner, myself included. From my POV im over dwelling on the past... it has happened, we cannot change history, but we must ensure a similar recurrence does not happen in the future and that a written and satisfactory process must be put in place. My comments that you overlooked in your quote were just my initial thoughts on ways that would avoid similar happening again.

As an aside I dont believe that had the lapped cars remained in place the result would have been any different. The lapped cars were all aware that they were interfering in the outcome of the championship and would have been instructed probably by their teams to not interfere with the leaders and as such Max would have passed all the lapped cars by T1.... his tyre advantage would have put him in the same situation of Lewis not having the pace to keep Max behind. All hypothetical of course, and easily said by one who is a fan of neither Max or Lewis.

But as I said my post was more about thoughts / ideas for putting a system in place to ensure we dont have the indecision and see-sawing of decisions that we had.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

F1 borrowed pitstops from across the pond, whether that be fuel and or tyre stops and the use of the option tyre. So I think it's more a matter of, we will do as others have done to a certain extent but we will also introduce something 'unique' so it's ours, like the Q2 tyre rule. That 'uniqueness' though tends to over complicate things. Does F1 really need all those compounds?

I'm with you re F1 (these days anyway) having a tendency to over-complicate EVERYTHING and it appears having a desire to not "import" known elements from other series.
Two things though (slight pedant warning) -
1. Pitstops were part of Grand Prix racing for a very long time and part of F1 early days too - Fangio's drive at the Nurburgring after a pitstop in 1957 is probably his most feted drive ever.
2. There used to be WAY more compounds / constructions for F1 teams to choose from back in the day - teams would then make their own decisions on what suited their car best at each track (can recall times where there were over 10 or so different tyre variations being evaluated during Friday prac) so the current choice of 3 only at each race is actually pretty vanilla.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

A point I made in the final GP thread:

Before deciding on how to handle race finishes when there has been an incident in the last few laps, one must first think about if it is okay if F1 collectively says we don't want the race/season to end bheind the safety car. Which, however understandable or perhaps even desirable, is an entertainment call and not a sporting call.

Many sports have rules that prevent either a drawn or neutralised result.

For example Tennis extends the last set of the game until a decisive result is declared.

Football has the dreaded penalty shootout for important games.

Golf has play-off holes.

Other sports have clung to the idea of drawn or neutralised result being an acceptable part of their culture. Cricket for example.

In my mind to be a sporting contest best allows the competitors to compete until a conclusion is reached.

Finishing under the safety car effectively stops the competition, disappointing fans from an entertainment perspective but more importantly robs the competitors from a sporting perspective.

How the deployment of the safety car and the extension of the race to avoid safety car finishes is implemented is for further discussion and what occurred in the last race, though not surprising to anyone who understands Masi's background, was not the best such example of good implementation.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by chavez

How the deployment of the safety car and the extension of the race to avoid safety car finishes is implemented is for further discussion and what occurred in the last race, though not surprising to anyone who understands Masi's background, was not the best such example of good implementation.

Agreed. However as said, F1 collectively decided to not wanting the season/race to end behind the SC, but not expand the sporting regulatory options for the race director to do so in the best possible way. Again, I agree that even within the current rules it should have been done better, but as argued, I think the RD should be given more option to solve that puzzle within the rules as fair as possible.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chavez

Many sports have rules that prevent either a drawn or neutralised result.

For example Tennis extends the last set of the game until a decisive result is declared.

Football has the dreaded penalty shootout for important games.

Golf has play-off holes.

Other sports have clung to the idea of drawn or neutralised result being an acceptable part of their culture. Cricket for example.

In my mind to be a sporting contest best allows the competitors to compete until a conclusion is reached.

Finishing under the safety car effectively stops the competition, disappointing fans from an entertainment perspective but more importantly robs the competitors from a sporting perspective.

How the deployment of the safety car and the extension of the race to avoid safety car finishes is implemented is for further discussion and what occurred in the last race, though not surprising to anyone who understands Masi's background, was not the best such example of good implementation.

F1 doesn't need a way of forcing a result (in the way penalty shootouts do) because there would have been a result anyway. The race would have been won. You cannot get a football style draw in Formula One.

What we're discussing here is not making sure there was a result, but rather making sure there was an exciting result. And that is the problem.

[S griffin]

The thing is excitement and drama in sport should never be forced. It should happen due to great performances and of course circumstances can play a part, but deliberately ignoring the rules to create a grandstand finish is not right

[Richard C]

A few days old, but interesting perspective from Bottas regarding his experience with 2022 car simulator for both Mercedes and Alfa Romeo

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1...ottas/7013381/

Richard

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

F1 doesn't need a way of forcing a result (in the way penalty shootouts do) because there would have been a result anyway. The race would have been won. You cannot get a football style draw in Formula One.

What we're discussing here is not making sure there was a result, but rather making sure there was an exciting result. And that is the problem.

A finish under the safety car is a result, but is it a sporting result if the rules prevent the competitors from competing to the end of the contest?

Just food for thought.