[Rumours] Groundhog Day’s Hamilton vs Masi - P45s at the ready?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Bump Pass

I agree.

You may agree, but you’re wrong..utter tosh.

It’s you’re opinion and you’re entitled to it, but the 2 situations are entirely different.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Skam85

And this is where a key factor of this race is so often overlooked.

Mercedes assumed that the race would end under the safety car and didn't pit Hamilton.

This despite:
- This happening just nine times in the history of F1

- Further to the above, only once in history has a race finished under SC when an incident has happened five or more laps from the end (Lap 70/78, 2010 Monaco where clearing cars takes a lot longer). All other SC-ending incidents were four laps from the end or closer.

- All teams agreeing the RD will avoid a SC finish at almost all costs

It was totally immaterial whether the race finished under that safety car as far as Mercedes and Hamilton were concerned. If they had stopped, whether that would have been before or after Verstappen pitted, Hamilton would have lost track position and would therefore have lost the race - it wasn't an option for the team.

Verstappen, and Red Bull, on the other hand, had absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain. They would have still been behind Hamilton, but they would have the advantage of having fresh rubber and would therefore have an advantage over the Mercedes.

So, Hamilton couldn't pit without losing the race, while Verstappen could win the race by pitting. All made far, far easier by Masi letting the cars between the two of them get out of the way by unlapping themselves, but at the same time not letting the other lapped cars do the same because that would have resulted in the race finishing behind the safety car.

In effect he gave a massive advantage to Verstappen, and I believe that Mercedes and Hamilton have every right to feel aggrieved. Which seems to have been echoed along the pit garages, apart from the Red Bull's one of course. And Hamilton's actions immediately after the race are to be commended, going straight up to Verstappen to congratulate him - I think that if it had been me, I might well have just disappeared into the back of the garage and not even bothered to go up to the podium ceremony, regardless of whatever the consequences may have been.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It was totally immaterial whether the race finished under that safety car as far as Mercedes and Hamilton were concerned. If they had stopped, whether that would have been before or after Verstappen pitted, Hamilton would have lost track position and would therefore have lost the race - it wasn't an option for the team.

Verstappen, and Red Bull, on the other hand, had absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain. They would have still been behind Hamilton, but they would have the advantage of having fresh rubber and would therefore have an advantage over the Mercedes.

So, Hamilton couldn't pit without losing the race, while Verstappen could win the race by pitting. All made far, far easier by Masi letting the cars between the two of them get out of the way by unlapping themselves, but at the same time not letting the other lapped cars do the same because that would have resulted in the race finishing behind the safety car.

In effect he gave a massive advantage to Verstappen, and I believe that Mercedes and Hamilton have every right to feel aggrieved. Which seems to have been echoed along the pit garages, apart from the Red Bull's one of course. And Hamilton's actions immediately after the race are to be commended, going straight up to Verstappen to congratulate him - I think that if it had been me, I might well have just disappeared into the back of the garage and not even bothered to go up to the podium ceremony, regardless of whatever the consequences may have been.

This.

How anyone can try to spin it any other way is pretty unbelievable, but there are those that try, whether trying to be trolls or not

[Bump Pass]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

You may agree, but you’re wrong..utter tosh.

It’s you’re opinion and you’re entitled to it, but the 2 situations are entirely different.

Ok, I'm listening,
How?

[Alan52]

I’ve got to the point where I just about discount the view of any British posts on this issue.
Even if they deny their Hamilton devotion to themselves it is always in plain view.
In case you’re wondering same with Australians and Ricciardo.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Just for context on this, noting that when there has appeared to be a lengthy SC period, the race is regularly Red-flagged:

- Safety Cars have only been an official part of F1 since 1993.

- In the same period five races were ended under Red Flag, after the SC was called more than 5 laps before the scheduled distance.

- In the same period five races were resumed after a Red Flag, following a late SC deployment.

So in actuality, we should be saying that - since 1993, roughly 20 races have seen late Safety Cars called where they were then either concluded under the Safety Car or were Red Flagged. Of these 30 races, on only one occasion has the Race Director deviated from the prescribed use of the Safety Car as outlined in the Regulations.

Therefore, Mercedes were on the wrong end of what is in hindsight a 1/20 gamble, betting against a situation that had occurred 0/19 times previously.

A red flag isn't based on how many laps the safety car is out though, nor how many laps from the end.

A red flag is purely based on the safety of the circuit.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

It was totally immaterial whether the race finished under that safety car as far as Mercedes and Hamilton were concerned. If they had stopped, whether that would have been before or after Verstappen pitted, Hamilton would have lost track position and would therefore have lost the race - it wasn't an option for the team.

Verstappen, and Red Bull, on the other hand, had absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain. They would have still been behind Hamilton, but they would have the advantage of having fresh rubber and would therefore have an advantage over the Mercedes.

So, Hamilton couldn't pit without losing the race, while Verstappen could win the race by pitting. All made far, far easier by Masi letting the cars between the two of them get out of the way by unlapping themselves, but at the same time not letting the other lapped cars do the same because that would have resulted in the race finishing behind the safety car.

In effect he gave a massive advantage to Verstappen, and I believe that Mercedes and Hamilton have every right to feel aggrieved. Which seems to have been echoed along the pit garages, apart from the Red Bull's one of course. And Hamilton's actions immediately after the race are to be commended, going straight up to Verstappen to congratulate him - I think that if it had been me, I might well have just disappeared into the back of the garage and not even bothered to go up to the podium ceremony, regardless of whatever the consequences may have been.

And of course all of the above are largely thanks to Sergio Perez's impressive defending, which cost Hamilton around 7 seconds which would have given him a SC window regardless of anything the race director did or didn't do.

[Bump Pass]

Originally Posted by Alan52

I’ve got to the point where I just about discount the view of any British posts on this issue.
Even if they deny their Hamilton devotion to themselves it is always in plain view.
In case you’re wondering same with Australians and Ricciardo.

Shouldn't matter where they are from.
End of the day we want to see racing.

Soon as we get some this storm should pass over.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Alan52

I’ve got to the point where I just about discount the view of any British posts on this issue.
Even if they deny their Hamilton devotion to themselves it is always in plain view.
In case you’re wondering same with Australians and Ricciardo.

But it is perfectly possible to be British (or Australian) and have a reasonable opinion on matters with these two drivers.

It is also possible that it can be a reasonable opinion and positive opinion of these drivers even if they are from the same country. It is possible to side with them on an issue too.

And this is the problem with the simpleton’s location checks out view. You throw out reasonable opinion and automatically assume it is to be dismissed. That is as bad as actual location checks out, which of course happens.

The answer is to rise above it.

The response of only saying location checks is as blind and bad as an actual location checks out.

And it is beyond tedious. It’s very obvious when someone is behaving as location checks out. We’ve now reached the point where it is obvious someone is just behaving as different-location checks out.

The best approach for those that are location checks out and different-location checks out is to find somewhere where only people who share your opinion are. I.e. not the big wild world.

As bump pass says it shouldn’t matter where you are from. Let’s assume that first.

Unfortunately I don’t share his optimism that as soon as we get racing it will pass over. The scheduling of the FIA response makes sure of that. But I hope I am wrong here.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Adam43

But it is perfectly possible to be British (or Australian) and have a reasonable opinion on matters with these two drivers.

It is also possible that it can be a reasonable opinion and positive opinion of these drivers even if they are from the same country. It is possible to side with them on an issue too.

And this is the problem with the simpleton’s location checks out view. You throw out reasonable opinion and automatically assume it is to be dismissed. That is as bad as actual location checks out, which of course happens.

The answer is to rise above it.

The response of only saying location checks is as blind and bad as an actual location checks out.

And it is beyond tedious. It’s very obvious when someone is behaving as location checks out. We’ve now reached the point where it is obvious someone is just behaving as different-location checks out.

The best approach for those that are location checks out and different-location checks out is to find somewhere where only people who share your opinion are. I.e. not the big wild world.

As bump pass says it shouldn’t matter where you are from. Let’s assume that first.

Unfortunately I don’t share his optimism that as soon as we get racing it will pass over. The scheduling of the FIA response makes sure of that. But I hope I am wrong here.

Exactly why I took my location off

Now nobody will ever know if I can or can't walk precisely 4.3km to Albert Park from my apartment

[Alan52]

I agree it is perfectly possible but I don’t know if I’ve seen a single British person posting here to back the Verstappen/Red Bull side of this.Maybe that is just a coincidence as statistically improbable as that is.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Alan52

I agree it is perfectly possible but I don’t know if I’ve seen a single British person posting here to back the Verstappen/Red Bull side of this.Maybe that is just a coincidence as statistically improbable as that is.

Location checks out. As an Australian it isn’t surprising you say this. We can obviously ignore your views.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Alan52

I agree it is perfectly possible but I don’t know if I’ve seen a single British person posting here to back the Verstappen/Red Bull side of this.Maybe that is just a coincidence as statistically improbable as that is.

That would be unBritish.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Alan52

I agree it is perfectly possible but I don’t know if I’ve seen a single British person posting here to back the Verstappen/Red Bull side of this.Maybe that is just a coincidence as statistically improbable as that is.

What can I say?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a600CZfPUSs&t=5s

[Adam43]

Despite it being a joke you actually proved the point! and all those other observations too!

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Oh, sorry. I was meant to quote Alan.

[Adam43]

The underlying metaphor is just ignore this stuff and just discuss the actual sport.

We’re so far up our own backsides here.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Alan52

I agree it is perfectly possible but I don’t know if I’ve seen a single British person posting here to back the Verstappen/Red Bull side of this.Maybe that is just a coincidence as statistically improbable as that is.

I’m British, but this isn’t a Mercedes’ V red Bull thing, it’s a Mercedes V Masi thing.

I would feel exactly the same way if Max was wronged in the last race.

Overall he did an incredible job as did his team, so if Max lost the championship in the same way I would be arguing on his side of this one.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Adam43

But it is perfectly possible to be British (or Australian) and have a reasonable opinion on matters with these two drivers.

It is also possible that it can be a reasonable opinion and positive opinion of these drivers even if they are from the same country. It is possible to side with them on an issue too.

And this is the problem with the simpleton’s location checks out view. You throw out reasonable opinion and automatically assume it is to be dismissed. That is as bad as actual location checks out, which of course happens.

The answer is to rise above it.

The response of only saying location checks is as blind and bad as an actual location checks out.

And it is beyond tedious. It’s very obvious when someone is behaving as location checks out. We’ve now reached the point where it is obvious someone is just behaving as different-location checks out.

The best approach for those that are location checks out and different-location checks out is to find somewhere where only people who share your opinion are. I.e. not the big wild world.

As bump pass says it shouldn’t matter where you are from. Let’s assume that first.

Unfortunately I don’t share his optimism that as soon as we get racing it will pass over. The scheduling of the FIA response makes sure of that. But I hope I am wrong here.

Of course it’s possible.
From the media Martin Brundle,Joe Saward and Paul di Resta are always balanced and reasonable with opinions that are “nationality neutral”.
On the other hand Johnny Herbert,Damon Hill and from what I’ve read in the past month Andrew Benson look at everything with the Union Jack obscuring their judgement.
If you look at the threads here nearly all of the strongest supporters of Hamilton/Mercedes in this issue are British.There are hardly any English people posting who have taken the Masi/Verstappen/Red Bull side.Take those people out and the weight of opinion is nearly even.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Alan52

Of course it’s possible.
From the media Martin Brundle,Joe Saward and Paul di Resta are always balanced and reasonable with opinions that are “nationality neutral”.
On the other hand Johnny Herbert,Damon Hill and from what I’ve read in the past month Andrew Benson look at everything with the Union Jack obscuring their judgement.
If you look at the threads here nearly all of the strongest supporters of Hamilton/Mercedes in this issue are British.There are hardly any English people posting who have taken the Masi/Verstappen/Red Bull side.Take those people out and the weight of opinion is nearly even.

Im a Hamilton/ Mercedes fan, but more than that im an F1 fan. when Lewis retires sooner than later, i will end up switching aliegence probably to Leclerc...my driver/ team choice isnt solely based on the 'home team'

My opinion on the last race wont change, nor will my opinion on Masi which isnt just based on one race but a string of bad, or questionable decisions over the last couple of years.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Alan52

I’ve got to the point where I just about discount the view of any British posts on this issue.
Even if they deny their Hamilton devotion to themselves it is always in plain view.
In case you’re wondering same with Australians and Ricciardo.

As Adam has so eloquently said, location shouldn't have any bearing on how we post here.

As a matter of fact, I equally dislike both of the drivers we are discussing on this and multiple other threads, and I was silently cheering on Rosberg to win over Hamilton during their time together, and I am not of German-Finnish descent. I actually know about some of Hamilton's background, and although I thought that he was a breath of fresh air when he started his F1 career, I have completely changed my views on him.

So, I am not at all sorry that he failed to gain yet another WDC, but I really wish that a) it had been lost due to fair racing on the track and not because of an unfair set of circumstances not of his making and b) if it had been any other driver rather than Verstappen.

My posts on this matter have had absolutely nothing to do with the actual drivers involved, but about the way that the result came about due to interference in the way that the race was concluded by those who were not on the track.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

My posts on this matter have had absolutely nothing to do with the actual drivers involved, but about the way that the result came about due to interference in the way that the race was concluded by those who were not on the track.

This.

As ive said before if Max/ Red Bull fans reversed the situation, can they honestly say to themselves that they would have accepted the result?

Take drivers/ teams out of it and it was just a bad episode for F1, a string of bad decisions made by this race director not just this year, but in previous seasons which has erroded peoples confidence in his ability.

People could argue its down to Formula 1 wanting a spectacle, but the FIA shouldnt be concerned with that, they are there to enforce the rules, not to entertain us.

[Akrapovic]

I don't care that Lewis lost the title. I care that the title was decided by applying the rules incorrectly to satisfy a Netflix like desire for drama over sporting accuracy.

And even if we ignore all of Lewis stuff, we had an interesting year of officiating didn't we? We had a race director allowing teams to bargain over what the grid should be with a team. We had a race director report a driver to the stewards for disobeying a yellow flag....that didn't exist. And we had a race director report a driver to the stewards for wearing a political t-shirt, backing a cause the FIA champions every weekend.

Even if you ignore Abu Dhabi, it's difficult to look at the officiating of Formula 1 in 2021 and come to the conclusion it was carried out with competancy.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I don't care that Lewis lost the title. I care that the title was decided by applying the rules incorrectly to satisfy a Netflix like desire for drama over sporting accuracy.

And even if we ignore all of Lewis stuff, we had an interesting year of officiating didn't we? We had a race director allowing teams to bargain over what the grid should be with a team. We had a race director report a driver to the stewards for disobeying a yellow flag....that didn't exist. And we had a race director report a driver to the stewards for wearing a political t-shirt, backing a cause the FIA champions every weekend.

Even if you ignore Abu Dhabi, it's difficult to look at the officiating of Formula 1 in 2021 and come to the conclusion it was carried out with competancy.

Not to forget the Spa saga, multiple races in the last 2 years that were red flagged that could have been dealt with under safety car, then the red flags leading to more accidents, and to top it off, pre race directors notes that werent clear, sometimes enforced, sometimes not and track limits changed throughout the weekend, sometimes enforced, sometimes not....'overtaking moves' that where drivers were forced off being ok in one race, not the next.

The whole situation just looks disjointed and adds to a feeling of mismanagment and a governing body that looks out of its depth.

This has lead to team owners being frustrated because they dont know where they stand, drivers getting away with stuff sometimes, not other times leading to frustration and utter polarisation of fans because of the rhetoric and frustration from teams who think the whole situation is unfair.

As above i care about Formula 1 more than any team or driver, as ive said before, thats what makes this situation so bad, its tarnishing the sport i love, in a year where weve had 2 phenominal teams and drivers go at it, some great midfeild performance and instead of talking about those, the sport is mired in controversy, largly because of the referee.

[S griffin]

I actually wouldn't have minded seeing Max champ, it would have made a nice change after years of Lewis winning, but the way it was decided means it will always be a hollow title to me