[Rumours] Groundhog Day’s Hamilton vs Masi - P45s at the ready?

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

I've always known Mark as a massive Aus motorsport snob. I vaguely remember interviews of him from when he was in fford.

[Derwent]

The sport is bigger than any single person or team. At some point Lewis will retired, probably sooner than later given his age. Michael retired after his dominance and then we had Lewis. New heroes will step into the breach. In my opinion it will be good for the sport as a whole.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

A competition that's been around since 1950, and Casper reckons it'll break down without Hamilton?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Alan52

How many drivers leaving F1 would want to race a NASCAR wannabe series (which is what Supercars is)?

Jacques Villeneuve, Jean Alesi, Heinz-Harald Frentzen, Christian Danner, Johnny Herbert, Stefan Johansson, Narain Karthikeyan, Ukyo Katayama, JJ Lehto, Gianni Morbidelli, Alex Yoong and Vitantonio Liuzzi all entered the Speedcar Series?

Gerhard Berger, Alan Jones, Sir Jack Brabham, Denny Hulme, Jacques Villeneuve, Jenson Button, Sir Stirling Moss, Tonio Liuzzi, Mika Salo have all given versions of Aussie Touring Cars a go.

And finally - Daniel Ricciardo has now sampled a Supercar on two separate occasions. He strapped into Triple Eight's 'Sandman' Supercar for a few laps of Sandown ahead of the 2016 Australian Grand Prix, then in 2019 at Calder Park he sampled the Castrol-backed Nissan Altima that Rick Kelly would race at the Beaurepaires Melbourne 400.

"(The Sandman) actually scared me," Ricciardo said. "It didn't really want to drive in a straight line. Probably because of that I was like 'If that's how they really are...'
"This felt more race-ready. I felt like I could have a bit of a go in this today, whereas the Sandman was a couple of laps of filming. I didn't get enough time to get a real feel of it.
"This was... I don't know, it was cool. They're fast as well. It's got some ponies."

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

A competition that's been around since 1950, and Casper reckons it'll break down without Hamilton?

I think claiming Casper said it'll break down is pushing it a bit far. It was more that Liberty will have concerns about the [short-term] marketability of the sport.....

Originally Posted by Casper

I bet there is wholesale panic within Liberty concerning the possibility that Hamilton will pull the pin and give them the finger on the way out. Hamilton staying will mean far more interest and viewers and that is why they are in F1.

Why exaggerate what was said?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

It might actually be the opposite. Would it be a shock to the system and will there be a specific amount of heat that the FIA and Liberty would have to take? Yes. Other than loosing his talent and his exit putting a period at the end of a specific era, it might actually be good for F1. Right or wrong, F1 has been smothered by the success of the combination of Lewis and Mercedes. I would argue the interest may be just as much if not more without him. Not anything negative toward Lewis, but it would open up and expose and answer the question of "What would F1 look like without Lewis Hamilton?"

Richard

No way, the controversy is dollars to Liberty no matter how much we despise it. The sport has now moved to personalities and the likes of Netflix and whatever happened in the past is defunct because now social media and Liberty have seen to that. Yes, Hamilton is bigger than the sport because it is him who has dragged it kicking and screaming into the modern social world of the internet despite all BE tried to do to prevent it happening. We can hate it or love it but denying the facts is like saying COVID will stop tomorrow.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

It's interesting to me to see that Alan sees Brundle and Joe Saward are balanced. I consider them two huge Hamilton groupies.

Bringing it back into this thread (my error for quoting in the wrong thread - sorry).

Brundle [Turkey 2021] - “I think yesterday was a mistake on Lewis’ part, yesterday, I think all Mercedes had to do was mimic, to an extent, what Red Bull were doing, try to minimise the pain of him taking an engine penalty and a grid penalty to go with that. So, I think Lewis put his team off balance. They did a bit of a No Man’s Land stop in the end. It was too late in the day for him to use the tyres, but they had to stop."

Saward [Sep 2020] - "Sorry, Lewis Hamilton, the F1 Stewards are NOT Out to Get You, [...] Hamilton and Mercedes missed something. There is no logic in Hamilton’s arguments."


Doesn't seem very 'groupie-ish' to me

[Moneyseeker]

I think in all the points put forward in the thread we are disregarding the Murray Walker 'F1 is IF' spelt backwards, it wasn't quite, but we know what he meant.

In looking at how Hamilton was 'denied' the win, we seem to be forgeting the Murray factor..

IF Latifi had not crashed there would have been no safety car
IF Latifi had not crashed at a part of the circuit where recovery was difficult the safety car would not have been out so long
IF Latifi had not crashed a part of the circuit that left a lot of debris on the track, the safety car would not have been out so long
IF latifi had not crashed so late on in the race, there would have been more laps for the above.
IF RBR had not gambled on putting Max on new tyres he would not have been in such a good postion to challenge.

Most of the above is luck and luck is something that no team principal can mirco manage or endlessly model and simulate.

If there had been a red flag and both Hamilton and Max changed tyres and it was a standing start with few laps remaining(I refer you to Azerbaijan 2021) there is nothing to say that Lewis would still have won the race anyway as we can assume that Max would still have been as commited to get past and surely they would have been 1-2 on the red flag gird and not have any lapped cars between them.

[Mike Harte]

Moneyseeker, you need to add to that list, though. Just off the top of my head, we have:

What IF Masi had let those unlapped cars remain between Hamilton and Verstappen?

What IF Masi had all allowed all the unlapped cars to unlap themselves?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Doesn't seem very 'groupie-ish' to me

It is easy to assume that there must be bias in anything that they disagree with. They are also looking for it. Ironically doing so could be a sign of bias.

Hence we end up our own whatsit.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Adam43

It is easy to assume that there must be bias in anything that they disagree with. They are also looking for it. Ironically doing so could be a sign of bias.

Hence we end up our own whatsit.

[S griffin]

I am just hoping a sensible solution happens, enough so there's no reason why both Hamilton and Masi can't continue. I actually feel a little sorry for Masi in some respects, but he shouldn't let team managers influence anymore

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Jacques Villeneuve, Jean Alesi, Heinz-Harald Frentzen, Christian Danner, Johnny Herbert, Stefan Johansson, Narain Karthikeyan, Ukyo Katayama, JJ Lehto, Gianni Morbidelli, Alex Yoong and Vitantonio Liuzzi all entered the Speedcar Series?

Gerhard Berger, Alan Jones, Sir Jack Brabham, Denny Hulme, Jacques Villeneuve, Jenson Button, Sir Stirling Moss, Tonio Liuzzi, Mika Salo have all given versions of Aussie Touring Cars a go.

And finally - Daniel Ricciardo has now sampled a Supercar on two separate occasions. He strapped into Triple Eight's 'Sandman' Supercar for a few laps of Sandown ahead of the 2016 Australian Grand Prix, then in 2019 at Calder Park he sampled the Castrol-backed Nissan Altima that Rick Kelly would race at the Beaurepaires Melbourne 400.

"(The Sandman) actually scared me," Ricciardo said. "It didn't really want to drive in a straight line. Probably because of that I was like 'If that's how they really are...'
"This felt more race-ready. I felt like I could have a bit of a go in this today, whereas the Sandman was a couple of laps of filming. I didn't get enough time to get a real feel of it.
"This was... I don't know, it was cool. They're fast as well. It's got some ponies."

I actually lol'd at this. Don't come in here with facts.

Regarding the groupies - Brundle regularly called Max one of the greatest drivers in F1, and how he had these amazing "Max Verstappen Masterclasses", despite Max having had won as many titles as David Coulthard at the time. He even continued to call Turkey 2020 as a Max masterclass, whilst he was off the road backwards.

I find it difficult to classify Brundle as a Lewis fan given how much he has bigger up Max for the last couple of years.

[gert]

I am a fan of neither Hamilton nor Verstappen and I really don't care which one of them wins. I prefer other drivers!

However, I have seen F1/FIA and Masi in particular make a mess of the 2021 season.

Masi's departure is not the solution, it is just a necessary first step.


Just my 2 cents.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Gerhard Berger, Alan Jones, Sir Jack Brabham, Denny Hulme, Jacques Villeneuve, Jenson Button, Sir Stirling Moss, Tonio Liuzzi, Mika Salo have all given versions of Aussie Touring Cars a go.

[/I]

Gerhard Berger actually raced F1 and Australian Touring cars the same weekend once..... he raced for Arrows in the Australian Grand Prix in 1985, and also got behind the wheel of Bob Jane's BMW 635 CSi for the supporting touring car race.

Another name you missed was Jacky Ickx.... he won the Bathurst race in 1977. He was also the first ever 'rookie' to win the race.
Larry Perkins ran in F1 for a couple of years for Brabham, BRM, Surtees and Boro
Frank Gardner ran in F1 in 1964 and '65
Johnny Cecotto , Dave Walker (did a few Bathursts in the early sixties. ) Joachim Winkelhock, Derek Bell did a number of Bathursts races late seventies early eighties
Ivan Capelli ran at Bathurst, albeit the 12 hour in a GT car
V8SC full timer James Courtney was a Jaguar F1 test driver.
Arguably Gary Brabham (never actually started a GP but DNQ'd a couple). He ran a number of Endurance races in Aussie Touring Cars.

In fact I just picked Bathurst 1977 as I recalled a few F1 drivers involved to further back your point.... I found the following entered.
Ickx, Perkins, Derek Bell, Brabham, Gardner, Schuppan, Pescarolo, Satoro Nakajima, and Basil van Rooyen,

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by gert

However, I have seen F1/FIA and Masi in particular make a mess of the 2021 season.

in fairness, prior to the last couple of minutes of the season, didnt most think this was one the best season in ages maybe even ever?

any other season in contention, and any one Charlie presided over, was also filled with contentious incidents that divided the fan base so those sorts of examples in and of themselves doesn't indicate a mess to me.

i still cant believe they managed to hold as many races as they did over the past two years.

i get that the last couple of minutes really put some people off, but i have to be honest, overall Masi and crew have done incredibly well given the circumstances.

an unpopular view though!

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Casper

I bet there is wholesale panic within Liberty concerning the possibility that Hamilton will pull the pin and give them the finger on the way out. Hamilton staying will mean far more interest and viewers and that is why they are in F1.

im inclined to agree here.

after the double knock out in their epic battle, Rocky also retired from boxing but pride and ego brought him back and fortunately we were treated to another movie and equally spectacular (and of course ridiculous) fight!

likewise, Liberty wants it sequel. it needs it!

heck we all need it too.

so no way do i believe anyone when they say the sport is bigger then Lewis...everyone here, whether they admit it or not, needs him back to fight again!

we are all essentially anoraks here...if we dont get the next episode it will literally eat us alive!

anyways, to each their own...says the guy who is still trying to get firefly back on the air!

[greentrumpet]

Inconsistent rulings, bizarre decisions, interpreting rules in a strange way, Spa and the last "Show". No, I don't think it was a great season especially if it encourages the sort of driving that uses the car as a weapon. I'm old enough to remember how one foot off line or a puddle could result in death. Many of my heroes died and I've always hated seeing crashes at races as a result. There's been enough time to discourage the sort of thuggish behaviour that Senna and Schumacher employed, that the FIA have failed so spectacularly this year is disgraceful.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by greentrumpet

Inconsistent rulings, bizarre decisions, interpreting rules in a strange way, Spa and the last "Show". No, I don't think it was a great season especially if it encourages the sort of driving that uses the car as a weapon. I'm old enough to remember how one foot off line or a puddle could result in death. Many of my heroes died and I've always hated seeing crashes at races as a result. There's been enough time to discourage the sort of thuggish behaviour that Senna and Schumacher employed, that the FIA have failed so spectacularly this year is disgraceful.

I’m inclined to agree.

I think Graham Goodwin summed it up nicely elsewhere. “There’s a difference between an entertaining race, and a great race”.

Don’t get me wrong I think there have been some great races this year, but too many times have they overstepped the mark into entertainment either by strange race control decisions or using your car as a weapon. Combine all that with the off track antics and it will make a great Netflix series but not the best end of year review DVD.

It’s a shame, because without the off track stuff it would have largely been great.

Maybe that’s just the nature of being in the modern world, information overload…No doubt all the off track BS has always happened but until recently we’ve never been privy to it…

…ignorance is bliss sometimes!

[greentrumpet]

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I think Graham Goodwin summed it up nicely elsewhere. “There’s a difference between an entertaining race, and a great race”.

It's interesting to see how the votes are progressing in the GROAT bracket, where entertaining races are not universally seen as great races.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

in fairness, prior to the last couple of minutes of the season, didnt most think this was one the best season in ages maybe even ever?

Most maybe, but I wasn’t in the most.

I even tried to find reason in Spa! I tried. However, by the time we got to it, I was on a massive downer about the season. Was not looking forward to the final race at all. And, like a tool, still watched it.

If I’m negative and down about the sport it ain’t because Hamilton didn’t win.

However my opinion can be dismissed because I’m from the wrong country.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Brundle has a 25 year broadcasting career, Saward 35-40 years as a journalist? crmalcolm cherry picks two quotes? Compelling evidence.

I agree with Akrapovic about Brundle being a Verstappen groupie.

There's a difference between racing in Australia (the ATCC and/or Bathurst) & racing supercars. Supercars is a racing ideology, and even if you don't like it, you have to say it's great.

[S griffin]

I'd definitely listen to Brundle's views, he's been involved in the sport long enough as a driver and a broadcaster. And he usually talks more sense than others. Not necessarily true of most people. And I can see where Saward is coming from too.

And of course Brundle is a Verstappen fan, he likes drivers with great natural talent.

But that's just my view. Others will no doubt disagree

[Derwent]

Last night, while having a small malt before bed, I saw some wrestling on TV, the first time for many many years. I saw so many similarities to F1 in the amount of pointless hype, speeches by the combatants, referee, and others who seemed to have no real involvement, but all to hype up the crowd. How the crowd don't realise it was all fixed and yet get so wound up I can't understand. In fact the "build up" lasted until the first advert break. The "contest" was so obviously scripted that you could predict what was going to happen.
Now we haven't got that far in motorsport yet, although BTCC are heading that way with F1 not that far behind. it is interesting to read how Liberty control Baseball and then we have the way boxing seems to have more action outside the ring and on social media than in.