|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
|
2 Oct 2020, 08:06 (Ref:4007891) | #1 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,536
|
Honda Withdrawl from F1
Breaking news that Honda will withdraw from F1 at the end of 2021.
Not good news for their two teams. https://global.honda/newsroom/news/2...01002aeng.html So many years of underperforming and explosions, and now they finally get to a position where they are reliable and competitive, and off they go. |
||
__________________
It's just my opinion. |
2 Oct 2020, 08:10 (Ref:4007892) | #2 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 10,932
|
Good. The F1 engine market needs to completely collapse in on itself so we can remove the power from the big manufacturers.
|
|
|
2 Oct 2020, 15:16 (Ref:4008031) | #3 | |||||||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,857
|
Sad news for both F1 and myself as I am a long time Honda fan.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I see lots of challenges to overcome. If you take the entire thing and take it elsewhere, then that is not just the basic IP of the current solution, but a ton of data and internal institutional knowledge as to "how" and "why" it works. Is Honda going to put a price tag on that? Could they even transfer that knowledge to someone if they wanted without providing long term support? Honda may even have some level of secret sauce IP that they don't want to let out of the house even if they don't plan to immediately use it. Or maybe they will patent it as keeping it secret no longer is needed (with no guarantee someone else could use it in F1). Even then, these power units are probably so complex (and supply chain related items so deep) I just wonder if someone could take the solution and shift it over and continue to produce new examples let along develop it. As to Honda partnering with someone (such as Mugen) be the face, but Honda continuing the work behind the scenes and having someone else foot the ongoing operating and R&D cost. That could happen if this was purely a financial question and Honda was just tired of spending the money, but still liked the direction. While the money required is for sure a concern at Honda, I think the real issue is as they say. They just don't think F1 currently (or in the future) is in sync with their corporate strategy! So in that situation, they will want to redirect those internal resources away to focus on their strategy. They will have little interest (even if someone else pays the bill) to keep their internal F1 team together. Plus, they rotate staff in/out. They will want those people to go forward and be part of other internal initiatives. Quote:
Quote:
I applaud the move to simpler solutions. But I frankly think they are not going far enough and should move to a more commodity solution and to do away with the power unit arms races. Would this mean some type of controls to limit performance? Probably. I assume it would be mostly done via VERY tight regulations with some occasional BoP type of things (I know, I know). The problem is that the discussion is lead by the manufactures so they are looking for a sweet spot in complexity that is good for them, but would not be good for someone like a Judd, Cosworth or Ilmor. On the surface this seems contrary to manufacture involvement. But rather what it does is allow manufactures to create their own versions of a relatively "spec" power unit and reap marketing benefits (as they do in other series that runs this way). But clearly it would not be a particularly challenging engineering experience. Some manufactures would not be interested, some would. But what would also be part of this would be the ability for small suppliers such as Judd, etc. to provide competitive engines. It also would allow someone like Red Bull to build their own engine. If I was Red Bull, and I wanted to remain in F1, I would press HARD for much more simple engine regulation for 2022+ that would allow them to eventually build their own engine. A basic non-turbo ICE that did not rely upon current levels of combustion efficiency plus maybe a more commodity hybrid solution. They could either hire away people from established player or just buy one of them. And that solution wouldn't have to be 100% focused on F1. It could continue to service other series as well. One last comment... Since Eddie Jordan is so good at predicting things, why wasn't the F1 sites flooded with quotes by him saying "Honda about to leave F1!" Richard |
|||||||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
2 Oct 2020, 15:46 (Ref:4008037) | #4 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 9,744
|
Quote:
granted an engine may be closer and dearer to their heart then the chassis IP was. |
|||
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place |
2 Oct 2020, 19:04 (Ref:4008078) | #5 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,857
|
Quote:
I think the Brawn chassis aero, while brilliant, was significantly less complex than the current power units. Teams also are already geared up to design, build and deploy chassis/aero solutions. So that was an easy transition. Having someone hand you a current F1 power unit and say "good luck" is likely to not go well. You would need to be someone who already understands how they work, plus have the supply chain and infrastructure to not just reproduce what has been given to you, but improve upon it. That list is probably small if not zero (unless you area an existing manufacture such as Porsche) Also, we are talking about the 2014-2021 specification. Which Honda will continue to provide RBR/AT with. This really is about what happens in 2022 which will be a new specification. Yes, it is likely to be a simpler evolution of what we have today, but make no mistake, those engines will be all new, because they are currently optimized for the current regulations. And the new regulations will drive new optimizations. The point being this is about a totally new engine and less about taking Honda's solution and running with it. But who knows what the 2022 power unit regulations will be? Maybe they will kick the can down the road and keep on with the current specification? But I can't see Ferrari agreeing to that given their current situation. They are probably more interested in rolling the dice on a new specification than continuing on with the current one. Richard |
||
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one." |
2 Oct 2020, 08:21 (Ref:4007896) | #6 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,178
|
If the burnt bridges can be rebuilt, I guess it will be Red Bull Renault again.
Interestingly Cyril was talking about Renault wanting partners not just customers for any future engine deals. This, though is the problem of a front running team needing engines from their immediate rivals. Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk |
|
|
2 Oct 2020, 08:21 (Ref:4007897) | #7 | ||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,734
|
Woah wasn't quite expectimg that as they are moving forwards in performance?!
Have to say i agree wity Akrapovic on this. Hopefully this will now see urgent activity by Stefano and co to investigate 'private' engine suppliers and entrants once more. This should also nip this stupid €200m new team entry fee in the bud. |
||
|
2 Oct 2020, 08:23 (Ref:4007899) | #8 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,178
|
Quote:
Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk |
||
|
2 Oct 2020, 08:34 (Ref:4007902) | #9 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,909
|
Oof! Where does that leave red bull! Renault are their only option and I guess the 2022 car will be designed around the Honda.
I guess the inevitable question is where does Max go? Ferrari or Mercedes? Does Mercedes replace Bottas with max and Hamilton retire at the end of 2021? Silly season just got an upgraded KERS system....just not a Honda one! |
||
|
2 Oct 2020, 08:35 (Ref:4007903) | #10 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,909
|
I’ve always wondered this. Where does F1 go next? Bin the manufacturers and get specialist racing engines giving petrol heads what they want or follow manufacturers and go fully electric
|
||
|
2 Oct 2020, 09:13 (Ref:4007910) | #11 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,178
|
Quote:
Been an interesting year for FOM and their investors have they have seen how vulnerable F1 is global conditions, not owning any circuits themselves and now manufacturers pulling out leaving teams without engines. I have always said that FOM/Liberty will never make the return on F1 that BE/CVC did and I still believe that. In order to protect their investment... They should go back to companies that were looking at developing engine and see what can be developed as a stock F1 engine in the realisation that no other car manufacturer is going to build an ICE F1 engine now. Buy their own circuit so they will always have a base for races/testing and where they could develop an European F1 experience - Liberty are in the entertainment inudstry aren't they - and then you would have a tangible asset, not just a load of contracts that as this year shoed, can be proved to be worthless. |
||
|
2 Oct 2020, 09:21 (Ref:4007914) | #12 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,909
|
Quote:
We could be heading for another Cosworth DFV type era with 1 specialist racing engine (and Ferrari) that puts more oneness on racing teams and constructors rather than engine manufacturers. The cost cap will help with this |
|||
|
2 Oct 2020, 15:02 (Ref:4008025) | #13 | ||
Rookie
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 53
|
Quote:
Edited to the bits which are really ********. No offense intended but here is why that is not how things work in the real world. Tangible assets. Entertainment companies are NOT tangible asset companies. Their revenues are not generated from holding anything other than contracts to supply entertainment. It may include some hard assets (ala Bernie owning paul ricard) but those hard assets are NOT the primary drivers of revenue for any entertainment company unless you're someone like Disney (they are a media company and diversified so not the best example) or a theme park. However, look at how Six Flags struggles during years when we DON'T have a pandemic and you'll see, entertainment firms relying on hard assets are not a good mix. The actual revenue driving assets are the contracts and the sales and hard assets for an entertainment driven company are an inefficient use of their resources. The Dallas Cowboy's, for example, do NOT own the stadium they play in. That's a fools investment and that is why big investments like that are, in the developed/non-totalitarian world, are public/private partnerships. For another consideration think of these tangible assets in terms of Silverstone or the Nurburgring or COTA. Hard assets such as these are NOT what an entertainment company should be investing in as the return on these assets are a drag. This idea that own tracks can generate any meaningful return on the capital is simply incorrect. Regardless of what you think Liberty should or should not do, fact is the firm has a massive catalog of assets and complex arrangements which relied upon debt and debt refinancing. Their liquidity runway was adequate for this year though clearly there were concerns about the financing burden on their coverage. And speaking of return for Bernie, consider the fact that when Liberty bought F1, the brand was burdened with +3B in debt...that doesn't seem like a wise use of funds either. Hard assets aren't the solution...racing is the solution. Good article at Forbes from earlier in the year if you'd curious. Chris Sylt is spot on in his analysis. https://www.forbes.com/sites/csylt/2.../#483c69af66e6 Everything else you said was fine |
||
|
2 Oct 2020, 09:38 (Ref:4007927) | #14 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 506
|
||
|
2 Oct 2020, 09:40 (Ref:4007929) | #15 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,909
|
|||
|
2 Oct 2020, 09:48 (Ref:4007936) | #16 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 506
|
Yep.
That's fine when it occurs like that "organically". When it's forced or pre-empted like in the btcc, it's not particularly satisfying. |
|
|
2 Oct 2020, 09:48 (Ref:4007935) | #17 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,178
|
||
|
2 Oct 2020, 08:49 (Ref:4007906) | #18 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,536
|
Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the 2022 engines will be the same as the current generation ones. Looking back to when Renault withdrew from F1 a few years back, Benetton ran the same engines but rebadged them Mecachrome IIRC. In the same way, perhaps Red Bull could continue to run the existing Honda units themselves. Is engine development restricted / frozen? If so, then this might be a viable option and they could remain competitive.
Given how overly complex the engines are, I cannot see why any new manufacturer in their right mind would enter F1 - especially considering how bad PR Honda got with their underpowered and unreliable engines when they entered. I assume that a new engine manufacturer would be unlikely - unless F1 rules change to simplify engine regs considerably. |
||
__________________
It's just my opinion. |
2 Oct 2020, 09:20 (Ref:4007913) | #19 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,178
|
Quote:
The Perez to RBR rumours seem to be gathering pace, maybe his sponsors wpould fund the engines? OT, but the Mercedes to selling to Ineos runours aren't going away either. I think Daimler are batting it off at the moment by saying they have no plans to sell the team - but the Ineos rumours are built around them buying a major stake (70%). |
||
|
2 Oct 2020, 08:55 (Ref:4007909) | #20 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,549
|
Remember after Honda pulled out the last time the team that they left behine went onto greater things.
Surprised at the timing when Honda seemed to be making decent progress with their power units. Problem is the cost cap does not cover power units properly. |
|
|
2 Oct 2020, 09:19 (Ref:4007912) | #21 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 3,549
|
Its going to be interesting to see what engines the Red Bull teams end up with.
It will have to be one of the existing maufacturers as there is not time for a new one to come in and develop a new power unit. I suspect we might see RB with one and Alpha Tauri wiyh another. Mercedes will be supplying power units to 4 teams next season so they are unlikely to have the capacity to supply 2 more. Renault and RB did not get on well in recent years despite winning 4 championships together. Ferrari are in a weak position at the moment and already have 3 teams to supply and probably don't want a high profile team like RB giving them more hassle. I suspect we could see Renault supplying Alpha Tauri as it would be lower profile and without all the drama that goes with RB. It would give Renault an extra load of data to work from. Where RB goes is another question, a Fiat badged Ferrari perhaps. |
|
|
2 Oct 2020, 13:07 (Ref:4007986) | #22 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,457
|
Quote:
|
|||
|
2 Oct 2020, 09:25 (Ref:4007916) | #23 | |
20KPINAL
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 29,853
|
||
|
2 Oct 2020, 09:32 (Ref:4007923) | #24 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,396
|
While it's a shame to lose Honda, this is why F1 or any motorsport for that matter, should be so reliant on manufacturers. They come and go as they please. Their racing department may enjoy the competition, but at the end of the day the decision to continue or not comes from those at the top, the actual motor manufacturer. If only we could have a modern equivalent of the good old Ford Cosworth DFV
|
|
__________________
He who dares wins! He who hesitates is lost! |
2 Oct 2020, 09:46 (Ref:4007932) | #25 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,178
|
Quote:
For years, F1 has been standing on an upside down pyramid. At the end of the BE/CVC era probably half the teams could afford to stay in business and half the circuits couldn't afford to hold the races - at least FOM is now recognising this and making changes. More worrying for FOM and their marketing people is that Honda no longer see the value in F1 for them, which is not good news for FOM's global marketing platform. |
||
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
BMW to announce withdrawl from F1? | Sodemo | Formula One | 162 | 3 Aug 2009 15:05 |
Withdrawl symptoms... | Redneck Rocket | Historic Racing Today | 20 | 21 Mar 2007 09:29 |
GM confirms Chevy withdrawl from IRL at end of year | Fogelhund | IRL Indycar Series | 17 | 24 Aug 2005 03:05 |
Racing Withdrawl | macdaddy | ChampCar World Series | 4 | 9 Jan 2005 20:50 |
MG withdrawl expected | Reido Rules | Touring Car Racing | 35 | 14 Sep 2002 15:38 |