[Rumours] McLaren and Honda Back Again?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Anyway, if it really has to happen and aims to be sucessful, it must begin at least a couple of years before the package hit the track.

God yes, how many miles of testing will an old MP4/20something be doing in Paffett's hands before it's anywhere near competitive?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chunterer

God yes, how many miles of testing will an old MP4/20something be doing in Paffett's hands before it's anywhere near competitive?

Not many, not under current testing regulations.

22.1 Track testing shall be considered any track running time not part of an Event undertaken by a competitor entered in the Championship, using cars which conform substantially with the 2010, 2011 or 2012 Formula One Technical Regulations, with the exception of promotional events carried out using tyres provided specifically for this purpose by the appointed supplier.

22.2 No competitor may carry out more than 15,000km of track testing during a calendar year.

You can use older cars, but they must also be unmodified.

All engine testing is currently carried out on a dynamometer.

Honda will not buy or put money into a McLaren engine. Not their style.

But anyway: http://totalf1.com/full_story/view/3...own_F1_engine/

[trahsub]

This is cool considering how awesome Honda's street car offerings are these days....oh that's right, they are terrible. Seriously, I like the news, but how can someone connect from a racing perspective with the crap they have on the showroom floors? A decade ago - OH YEAH! NSX, DC2/5 Type R, CTR, etc....

Now what? I drive an RDX Turbo, and the F1 engine has a turbo, therefore I can relate?

Sorry for the rant, I'm just so disappointed with how lame Honda has become.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by trahsub

This is cool considering how awesome Honda's street car offerings are these days....oh that's right, they are terrible.

It depends on what your definition of a "terrible" street car is. Not everyone wants a sports car, particularly one that eats fuel.

If Honda do get back into F1, it will not be to show how powerful an engine they can build, it will be to show how efficient an engine they can build.

As far as I can make out, the 2014 regulations do not limit the power of the engines. But you will only have about 100kgs of fuel to get you to the end of the race......

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Marbot

All engine testing is currently carried out on a dynamometer.

Honda will not buy or put money into a McLaren engine. Not their style.

But anyway: http://totalf1.com/full_story/view/3...own_F1_engine/

Thanks for the regs refresher!

Getting thumped for several years by firms they had previously soundly beaten also wasn't their 'style'

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Getting thumped for several years by firms they had previously soundly beaten also wasn't their 'style'

They left because V8 petrol engines are not 'where it's at'. The V8 engines had become a commodity and aerodynamics was the key to success. Honda are not alone at not being good at aerodynamics. They never needed to be.

However, the 2014 regulations will once again put the power-train as the main performance differentiator. So Honda, and others, may find it interesting again.

We seem to be forgetting about the PURE engine project. Perhaps McLaren......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propuls...on_d%27Energie

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by Marbot

As far as I can make out, the 2014 regulations do not limit the power of the engines. But you will only have about 100kgs of fuel to get you to the end of the race......

Thats not what I've heard, things are looking more towards having a maximum Fuel Flow regulation.

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by Marbot

The history of McLaren is to use someone else's engine to power their cars. The history of Honda has always been one of using their own engines with their name or some other name on them. It's what they do. No way will we ever see Honda put their name on a McLaren engine.

If Honda do come back into F1, it will be because the technical challenge suits them.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns23756.html

Partnerships don't always have to be exactly like they've been in the past. My comment about the history is that they have a successful winning heritage to draw on that will please the Merchandising departments. Honda's failed venture with BAR might just have changed their minds about how to proceed in the future, especially with one eye on Renaults current strategy in F1.

As per the engine, well McLaren even for their Road cars don't really have their own Engine manufacturing plant. So although most of the Engine design may come from McLaren, Honda could still justify their "Sponsorship" of the engine by playing some part in the manufacturing process.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

So although most of the Engine design may come from McLaren, Honda could still justify their "Sponsorship" of the engine by playing some part in the manufacturing process.

Sorry. Honda aren't going to sponsor another car manufacturers engine. They will get no commercial benefit from putting a badge on a McLaren engine. It'll be their way or no way, as is their tradition.

Currently, I would think Honda far outweigh McLaren on an engine programme basis, anyway. So why sponsor something of someone else's that you already have? McLaren would maybe be better off putting a badge on a PURE engine. Or maybe, more likely, continue with Mercedes engines if Honda don't come back.

And McLaren (Martin Whitmarsh) has stated that McLaren won't be building a V6 turbo engine, so it's far more likely that they'll buy someone else's. As they usually do.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by trahsub

This is cool considering how awesome Honda's street car offerings are these days....oh that's right, they are terrible. Seriously, I like the news, but how can someone connect from a racing perspective with the crap they have on the showroom floors? A decade ago - OH YEAH! NSX, DC2/5 Type R, CTR, etc....

Now what? I drive an RDX Turbo, and the F1 engine has a turbo, therefore I can relate?

Sorry for the rant, I'm just so disappointed with how lame Honda has become.

All mainstream manufactures cars are 'lame' in that respect. It's how they conform to all the required regulations, and to what their customers actually want.

I have a 9 years old petrol Honda Civic 1.6 , it's pretty lame by your defn, but it does 40mpg, has done 175k miles and you still cannot hear the engine. To me, that isn't lame - that's quality engineering. Although I did have to change a tail light bulb the other day.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Although I did have to change a tail light bulb the other day.

My Mum has a Honda Jazz. If there's a better car for 'mums', I'd like to know what it is!

If you want affordable excitement, cutting edge technology, reliability with first class build quality.....buy one of their motorcycles.

[henners88]

Originally Posted by Marbot

My Mum has a Honda Jazz. If there's a better car for 'mums', I'd like to know what it is!

If you want affordable excitement, cutting edge technology, reliability with first class build quality.....buy one of their motorcycles.

Indeed and not their present Civic Type-R.

[Marbot]

No engines from Honda, say McLaren. It looks like they will continue with Mercedes power for the foreseeable future.

"That's all wide of the mark," he told ESPNF1 during the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes phone-in. "We are wedded to, very happy with and enjoying our partnership with Mercedes-Benz. We're not quite sure how or where that [news] broke from in truth, but I can stop the rumours and say we are entirely focused on the Mercedes-Benz relationship. We've had a long standing relationship with them, with many wins and championships and long may that continue."

http://en.espnf1.com/mclaren/motorsp...ory/65015.html

http://www.pitpass.com/45292-Neale-denies-Honda-links

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Sorry. Honda aren't going to sponsor another car manufacturers engine. They will get no commercial benefit from putting a badge on a McLaren engine. It'll be their way or no way, as is their tradition.

Currently, I would think Honda far outweigh McLaren on an engine programme basis, anyway. So why sponsor something of someone else's that you already have? McLaren would maybe be better off putting a badge on a PURE engine. Or maybe, more likely, continue with Mercedes engines if Honda don't come back.

And McLaren (Martin Whitmarsh) has stated that McLaren won't be building a V6 turbo engine, so it's far more likely that they'll buy someone else's. As they usually do.

And I'm sorry but the fact that Ilmor Engineering Inc. design and build Honda's IndyCar V8 just totally undermines what you've just said. Seems like their "Tradition" went straight out the window with that one.

I've read the latest statements from McLaren denying the rumors, but as it often the case there's no smoke without fire. When McLarens engine deal runs out in 2015 they will want a backup plan and Honda may be part of that. But for the time being it appears it's just a case of watch this space.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

And I'm sorry but the fact that Ilmor Engineering Inc. design and build Honda's IndyCar V8 just totally undermines what you've just said. Seems like their "Tradition" went straight out the window with that one.

Since 2006 it's been a single 'spec' engine design in a single 'spec' series, and even when they were competing with other engine manufacturers in IRL, it wasn't exactly cutting edge stuff. It was based on the Honda Legend saloon car engine, as per IRL rules. They were also built down to a price, and not up to any particular standard.

In 2003,4 and 5, It was a joint venture between Ilmor and Honda Performance Development (HPD) of California. The 2012 IRL Honda engine will be developed solely by HPD. Ilmor will develop the Chrevrolet engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_P...ce_Development

It was successful because the competition was poor. But why now waste your top engineers on something that any engine company could build and run. So, for the last 5 years it's been a spec 3.5 litre, 650 bhp, 10,300 rpm engine.

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

I've read the latest statements from McLaren denying the rumors, but as it often the case there's no smoke without fire. When McLarens engine deal runs out in 2015 they will want a backup plan and Honda may be part of that. But for the time being it appears it's just a case of watch this space.

If Honda come back it will be because they can afford to come back on their own terms, and not necessarily with McLaren. In the meantime, it's Merc power for McLaren.

[Marbot]

There may also be a legal reason as to why McLaren F1 cannot produce its own engines.

"Some history about McLaren Engines - it started as a place for Bruce McLaren to build his engines for his CanAm cars, instead of shipping them overseas every time they needed a rebuild. A few years after Bruce died, McLaren Cars in the UK and McLaren Engines in the US decided to go their separate ways. Part of the agreement was that McLaren Cars would not produce their own engines, and McLaren Engines would not produce their own cars. This is why the McLaren Formula One team always uses someone elses engines."

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/for...y/12668/page1/

So, McLaren engines, Inc, seems to be alive and well.....in Michigan!

[chunterer]

But the fact of the matter is unless you work for Mclaren or know someone very high up either there or in Japan, we don't know anything for sure about what engines they'll use in a couple of years time!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chunterer

But the fact of the matter is unless you work for Mclaren or know someone very high up either there or in Japan, we don't know anything for sure about what engines they'll use in a couple of years time!

In a couple of years time McLaren will be using Mercedes engines. That's pretty much a done deal.

http://en.espnf1.com/mclaren/motorsp...ory/59336.html

Yes, it is true that none of us will really know what will happen when 2014 finally gets here. But you can have a fairly good idea about what's not likely to happen. And 'continuity' seems to be the watchword at this stage of the game.

As for Honda: Shares are down 30% in the last 9 months. Hardly the sort of position you need to be in to make a commitment to an F1 engine programme, let alone be spending it on someone elses efforts.

All the work of a bored German F1 journalist methinks.

[Paradise City]

I'm not sure I have confidence in these denials. The McLaren-Merc long term relationship won't be very stable. Either the Works Merc will beat the McMerc under which circumstances the Mc bosses will become uncomfortable or the McMerc will keep beating the Works Merc by which time Merc bosses will become uncomfortable. In short I don't think Mclaren being a customer will satisfy Mclaren as a permanent arrangement. Now, with a championship to win it doesn't pay for Mclaren to detstabilise the relationship with Merc by fanning salacious speculation that the romantic McHonda relationship may be revived a number of years down the line.

Marketing wise a Mclaren Honda link up would be perfect for Honda. It would be a very cost effective way to tap into what is now percieved as a very romantic era in which their brand held a high profile. Linking up with any other team would be very vanilla. Any other team just wouldn't inspire. Mclaren would be the only team that would be suitable if they are considering a return. That's my instinct on it.

[Marbot]

I think that I have less confidence in the rumour than I do in the denials.

Honda and other Japanese car makers are having a very bad time of it just now (Honda are 30% down on share price in just the last 9 months). I can't see anyone in a Japanese car manufacturing boardroom putting pen to paper for quite some time.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Honda and other Japanese car makers are having a very bad time of it just now (Honda are 30% down on share price in just the last 9 months). I can't see anyone in a Japanese car manufacturing boardroom putting pen to paper for quite some time.

With low-cost rules stability Honda could pop out an old turb at a bargain, no problem.

They'd then compare that arrangement with the massive overheads seen on the Team Honda balance sheet and see massive savings. Rather than scuttling back into ones shell, it's a cost-effective way of announcing to the world that you're still in business.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

With low-cost rules stability Honda could pop out an old turb at a bargain, no problem.

There are still many doubts about the 'low-cost' rules in F1. More news on that, this weekend.

Originally Posted by Paradise City

They'd then compare that arrangement with the massive overheads seen on the Team Honda balance sheet and see massive savings. Rather than scuttling back into ones shell, it's a cost-effective way of announcing to the world that you're still in business.

There are many car manufacturers "in business" who have never seen it necessary to enter F1. But there are a few who have had there reputations damaged by being in F1.

It maybe that most take the view of VW with regard to F1.

http://www.yallaf1.com/2011/11/23/vo...in-f1-project/

Maybe as an engine manufacturer they might come back, but the 2014 regulations are more than just about making engines with a turbo. It's also about making regenerative technology, etc. Honda never had a KERS, so they're going to have to be pretty sure that they can catch up with the ones that have had a head start with those types of technologies, bearing in mind that the one McLaren uses is not theirs.

[stripedcat]

It seems that this isn't going to come to anything. It really was just a rumour after all. Although, I still think that Mercedes might just want to concentrate on their own team in the future.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96409

As regards Honda road cars, they have made some superb cars in their time. The NSX is very good, the Prelude superb(go without the 4 wheel steering version though), the CRX is mega(I used to won one) and I loved the S2000. What a rev happy little monster that was! The only current car in the Honda line up which seems exciting is the Honda CRZ. It uses hybrid technology(sic).

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

With low-cost rules stability Honda could pop out an old turb at a bargain, no problem.

Originally Posted by Marbot

There are still many doubts about the 'low-cost' rules in F1. More news on that, this weekend.

Mclaren does not strike me as a team who want bargain priced goods or a low cost anything.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Mclaren does not strike me as a team who want bargain priced goods or a low cost anything.

Quite. Which is why they might end up just racing Ferrari.

As promised. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96442