Careers that declined or could have had more titles?

[Lotusonpole]

As Ayrton Senna has already been mentioned, I take it drivers that sadly are no longer with us count too?

I agree that Senna could and probably would have added to his WDCs total.

Therefore may I add Jochen Rindt and Jimmy Clark?

Rindt had at last got the machinery at Lotus to shine and live up to his great potential. Clark was a master and I wonder just how many more World Championships he would have bagged?

I also agree with the comments re: Chris Amon too.

Peter

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

JACKIE STEWART!!!!!

...3 championships in only 5 years in F1....IF he continuted could he have had more titles??? probably.......

....or did he escape soon enough with his life....dangerous times back then

I seem to remember him having various illnesses and a lot of stress and him talking about how much all that affected him, not to mention all the travel. I don't think he had much left in him.

[W.A Trichlorostyrene]

Originally Posted by ECW Dan Selby

I think Senna could have done it in 1994. By the end of the season, the car was pretty good. Clearly looked a handful at the season opening, though.

Would have been interesting to see what'd happen in the traction control developments, too...

Selby

Indeed, I really don't that Senna's difficult season start would've prevented him from clinching the title. Afterall he was only 6 points behind Hill before Imola(7 after) - the same Hill would've been champion if TGF played it fair at Adelaide. And there's virtually no doubt that Senna would've beaten Hill that year, enough to gain 7 points on him during the last 13 GPs at least.

But of course we'll never know for sure

[Lotusonpole]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

JACKIE STEWART!!!!!

...3 championships in only 5 years in F1....IF he continuted could he have had more titles??? probably.......

....or did he escape soon enough with his life....dangerous times back then

Indeed they were. I suppose that is the biggest reason many who might and probably would have won more championships did not sadly.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I seem to remember him having various illnesses and a lot of stress and him talking about how much all that affected him, not to mention all the travel. I don't think he had much left in him.

It was in part due to his own decisions over sponsorships though. Never one to miss a falling pound, Sir Jackie...

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

JACKIE STEWART!!!!!

...3 championships in only 5 years in F1....IF he continuted could he have had more titles??? probably.......

ummmmmm...Stewart's GP debut was in 1965 in a BRM?

Would agree in a sense about him, but the pressure was getting to him and if he had not decided before, the death of Cevert would certainly have made the decision. Those were dangerous times and thank heavens we are beyond them.

My first though upon seeing the title of the thread was Emmo, had he not gone to Copersucar. He left a McLaren that was a mighty team and he fit in very well there.

Moss certainly. Clark would certainly had a title or two more at least.

Amon's time is mostly before I followed, so I base my understanding of those from that time. He was a great talent. But, to me, it does seem that something was missing. What it was I don't know, commitment, desire?

SENNA without a doubt.

[Razzzor]

Yeah Amon's a bit before my time... considering he never won a single race and he had a full F1 career, a title may have been a long shot. Actually thinking of kiwi's, Bruce McLaren could have won a title if he were in the right car at the right time (not team mate to Jack Brabham!). He had a 2nd and couple 3rds in the WDC throughout his career and usually beat his team mates.

RE 1994. Senna would only have been champion on the assumption that Schumacher would still have been dsq and banned from 4 races. But with Senna in the field things may have gone differently - maybe he would have been in all those 4 races. In which case, neither Senna or Hill would have come close to him in points in 1994.

[wolfhound]

Two drivers who never got to fullfil their potential to my mind were Didier Pironi and Stefan Bellof. Didier could have won a title in 1982 and Bellof never got a chance but appeared to have the ability if he got the oppertuninty.

[Lotusonpole]

Might Ronnie Peterson be considered?
A brilliant talent maybe throttled by team orders?

[MJones94]

A really good thread idea! I've been thinking about this for a while.

Alain Prost:

Yes you could say he was lucky to win the title in 86 but remember he missed out by 2 points in 1983 and half a point from Lauda in 1984 which really isn't much! Also it would of been a long shot but had Prost not of been involved in the 1990 Suzuka incident then of won then he might of had another championship. Mind you the 1990 example was a long shot.

Kimi Raikkonen:

I still maintain my view that Raikkonen would of easily won the 2005 championship had it not been for the McLaren's woeful reliability record. He was astounding in that year and deserved it for sure. I would say Kimi's consistent podiums in 2003 and the fact that a second place was only 2 points off a win meant he could launch a genuine challenge for the championship. The problem was the McLaren was pretty much always the third best car so he did not have the best opportunity in that respect.

Gilles Villeneuve:

Gilles is surely one of the outright fastest racers this sport had ever seen and surely would of been champion in the future.

Michael Schumacher:

I say this in a way because had he held off Villeneuve in 1997 then yes. Perhaps also if he had not stalled on the grid in Japan then he might (and I say might) of pipped Hakkinen to the 1998 title.

Note how this post includes a lot of ifs and buts!

Lewis Hamilton:

Obviously 2007 would be the prime example had he not run into the gravel in China and settled for third and not of had gearbox problems in Brazil. I still believe that that championship in 2007 was never-to be for Hamilton for some reason. 2010 is perhaps another example because he had a few altercations such as Spain -18 points and Hungary (Can't remember tbh) mind you the McLaren was just not fast enough.

Jean Alesi:

I think that Jean Alesi is the most underrated driver of all time in that he only won one race. He was awesome in the Tyrell in 1990, especially when he passed Senna for the lead in Phoenix. Obviously the Ferraris he had were pants but I definitely think he would of won more (Surely a championship) had he had a front-running car.

Ayrton Senna:

Of course there is the obvious 1989 incident. Also in 1994 I felt that he would be able to catch Schumacher in the end.

Mikka Hakkinen:

In 2000 McLaren still had the fastest car yet Hakkinen had terrible luck that year, at the Austrian GP for instance where he lost 10 points for a seal missing etc.

Juan Pablo Montoya:

A blisteringly fast driver and another contender for the 2003 title. By the mid season the Williams was definitely the quickest car, atleast until the new Michelin tyre regs were put in place which slowed them down quite a bit. Obviously the sticking fuel rig in Indianapolis and a drive through killed JPM's title chances.

[MJones94]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

True. If we're talking drivers who never won the title, then surely Stirling Moss is surely the ultimate. As Nigel Roebuck says, the fact that Stirling Moss never became champion casts a shadow over the championship more than it does him.

Ah yes I completely forgot about Sir Stirling he definitely deserved to a win a championship. That is a really good quote from Nigel Roebuck!

[djinvicta]

Careers that declined. Dr Colin Kolles is leaving HRT as reported on the BBC website...

[Marbot]

Should maybe add to that list Buemi and Alguersuari.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Niki Lauda. Won it hands down in 1975, was on his way to winning it in 1976 until the accident at the Nürburgring and then lost the championship to Hunt by one point. He came back to win it in 1977. If it hadn't been for that accident, he might have done three in a row and possibly more.

[f1manoz]

Jackie Stewart is a good shout. 27 wins and 3 World Titles in 99 races and went out at the top. Who knows how many more races and titles he could have won had he stayed. But he got out with all limbs intact and without ever having a serious injury at a time when the death rate could be horrific at times.

Always wonder if Gilles could have been consistent enough to win the 1982 title. The Ferrari was clearly the best car and there's no doubt he would have wrung the car by it's neck. But events at Imola may have hung over that team all season if not for Zolder anyway....

[chunterer]

Mario Andretti could figure here.

One WDC later on in his F1 career but you have to wonder what he could've achieved much earlier if he had kept a competitive ride long enough....

[Adam43]

Mario's numbers are limited by his desire to race in many series, collecting wins and dollars everywhere. If he had concentrated on F1 he would have more wins and possibly championships.

Fair play, you can chose your own way. When he really committed he won.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Razzzor

RE 1994. Senna would only have been champion on the assumption that Schumacher would still have been dsq and banned from 4 races. But with Senna in the field things may have gone differently - maybe he would have been in all those 4 races. In which case, neither Senna or Hill would have come close to him in points in 1994.

I don't know...looking at the quali results from the first three races in '94, Senna had Hill comfortably outclassed. Lots of ifs and buts, but I'd have expected him to walk away with it in the superior Williams.

[OZ_HCR32]

A career that declined the instant he seemed to get to F1 was Bourdais. I thought he was an interesting one. I read that he had trouble in wet races with gasses fogging up...I remember he cried at Spa when on the last lap the guys on wets led by Heidfeld passed him and put him from something like 4th to 10th (?!?! approx)

But then after being shown the door at STR, i recall someone saying he did a good job for an average driver. Not a great endorsement

Seemed odd as he has been great in everything else he sat in

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

A career that declined the instant he seemed to get to F1 was Bourdais. I thought he was an interesting one. I read that he had trouble in wet races with gasses fogging up...I remember he cried at Spa when on the last lap the guys on wets led by Heidfeld passed him and put him from something like 4th to 10th (?!?! approx)

But then after being shown the door at STR, i recall someone saying he did a good job for an average driver. Not a great endorsement

Seemed odd as he has been great in everything else he sat in

I think by the time he ended up at STR, they already had their eyes set elsewhere, as Red Bull always does. Their handling of drivers has always been bizarre and wasteful with Vettel the rare exception. I really don't believe Bourdais got a fair shake.

He is one of the most precise, consistently fast drivers I have ever seen and he will be in demand for years to come in other categories.

At least he had a shot at it which many drivers never do.

[Razzzor]

Yeah I faintly remember that one oz where he was on for an awesome result, then on the last lap he ends up nowhere. I was ****ed off about that.

I think it was his very first race he was running up in 5th or something, ahead of Vettel, and something mechanical let him down. He was running really well at Monaco and cruising through the field in the rain, up to about 5th again I think, but he the damn wall and spoiled it.

The Monza race that Vettel won Bourdais would have been top 5 there as well.

He had some bad luck that year, but then again so did Vettel, something like 3-4 consecutive races where he was out on the first lap?

Bourdais deserved a better chance at F1. He's slowly got his career back on track and probably has a full time drive in Indycar next year, though he's not likely to win any races. In hindsight, he should have left his 4 Champcar titles and signed with Ganassi or Penske instead of ******* around in F1 with a team that dumps drivers mid season.

Actually another guy that never got a proper shot at F1 was Justin Wilson. Sure you can score almost double the points of every other competitor on your way to the 2002 F3000/Gp2 title, including Webber who was probably in the better team... but don't give the guy a proper chance at F1.

[Crawford Fan]

I wonder how Derek Warwick's career would have panned out had he a) signed for Williams for 1985, or b) got his hands on a Lotus in 1986. On his day he was seriously quick. Of course, he also had a curious route to F1, having been a stock car champion.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Crawford Fan

I wonder how Derek Warwick's career would have panned out had he a) signed for Williams for 1985, or b) got his hands on a Lotus in 1986. On his day he was seriously quick. Of course, he also had a curious route to F1, having been a stock car champion.

He didn't make the right choices that is for sure. He said signing for Renault was the worst decision of his career and also I think it was money motivated as well

[Crawford Fan]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

He didn't make the right choices that is for sure. He said signing for Renault was the worst decision of his career and also I think it was money motivated as well

Yes, I agree. It certainly made sense for him to go to Renault for 1984. He was expecting to step into a race winning car. Staying with them for 1985 was perhaps his major mistake.

Another enigma was Stefano Modena. Very talented, some podiums, then went into rapid decline and promptly disappeared from F1 after a disastrous season with Jordan.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Crawford Fan

Yes, I agree. It certainly made sense for him to go to Renault for 1984. He was expecting to step into a race winning car. Staying with them for 1985 was perhaps his major mistake.

Another enigma was Stefano Modena. Very talented, some podiums, then went into rapid decline and promptly disappeared from F1 after a disastrous season with Jordan.

Modena may have been one of those drivers that had talent, but not the desire or drive. As I recall he quit his first F1 race because he was tired and subsequently conked out at different times in his career when he didn't feel like pushing. His best year was with Tyrrell in 1991. I don't think he ever had the stuff to be a race winner or WDC.

The Yamaha Jordan ended Mauricio Gugelmin's F1 career as well. Not a good engine.