[Driver] Schumacher used driving aids - Verstappen

[Bononi]

The story has been told many times, I won't quote myself again about the whole thing.

[Thundersports]

Two Benetton B194s ran in Euroboss there was a "facility" to run them with traction control and launch control........when one was put up for sale it even stated in the advert that it had traction control!

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Bononi

The story has been told many times, I won't quote myself again about the whole thing.

You're quite right though Bon, well said.

I think the simplest way to summarise why one car probably had it and the other probably didn't is that the team only had the resources to back one car and not 2.

Although, there were several races when it seems that they both benefited from something (or perhaps neither did.)

(although i am positive that my last post is also someway true no matter how some people may scoff!)

[phoenix]

Maybe it is coincidence that Renault had the most effective launch control software from a very early stage and also:

"In high-performance racing vehicles, the driver has a very small threshold when it comes to acceleration. High power delivered by the engine to the gearbox and driven wheels cannot be easily managed even by the most experienced drivers. Faced with this issue, and with the growing development of electronics during the 1980s, it led to the introduction of this type of software [launch control]."

"In 1985, Renault's RE60 F1 car stored information on a diskette which was later unloaded at the pits, giving the engineers detailed data about the cars' behaviour. Later on, telemetry allowed the data to be sent by a radio connection between the pits and the car. The increase of electronic-driven devices on the car allowed the engineers to modify the settings of certain parameters on the car while it was on the track, this being called bi-directional telemetry."

By choice of the pit wall, this could be applied to neither car, one car, or both......

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Maybe it is coincidence that Renault had the most effective launch control software from a very early stage and also:

By choice of the pit wall, this could be applied to neither car, one car, or both......

Hmmmm........

[beau1]

Originally Posted by NewYankee01

no wonder he's not the same standard we all seemed he was now in 2011...even if he's 40+

Yeah, its not like he won another 6 championships and another 80 odd races is it?

What a strange comment to make.

[Paradise City]

St. Flavio of Monte Carlo? Up to monkey business back in '94? Say it ain't so.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by McArthur252

Sounds like the ramblings of quite a bitter man to me.

Love him or hate him he's still 7x World Champion, won 91 GP's and one of the greatest drivers the sports ever seen. And at 42, still f*****g quick.

And JJ and Jos are still ..... slow.

And Schumacher is still probably the fastest starting driver on the grid.

Nothing beats a good conspiracy theory!

[strider]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

The only part that does not stack up is why they ran the system in only 1 car?

The team was built around Schumacher, much as Ferrari was in later years.

[Kempi]

I won't take part in the dead horse beating on whether there truely were driving aids or not, but insinuating TGF was responsible for Senna's death because he allegedly cheated, as has been hinted at in this thread, is quite something. And not really something positive.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Kempi

I won't take part in the dead horse beating on whether there truely were driving aids or not, but insinuating TGF was responsible for Senna's death because he allegedly cheated, as has been hinted at in this thread, is quite something. And not really something positive.

I agree.

I completely believe Senna was going to go flat out no matter what, especially to show the new boy who was boss, driver aids or no driver aids.

It's kind of like blaming Villeneuve's death on Pironi because Pironi made him mad.

It's a shirt tail clinging by a thread argument to say the least.

[henners88]

Schumacher uses illegal TC during '94 shock horror!! lol
Talk about old news that we already know!

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by wnut

And JJ and Jos are still ..... slow.

And Schumacher is still probably the fastest starting driver on the grid.

Nothing beats a good conspiracy theory!

Or a bad one!

Even DC was a often a better 'starter' than Schu when they were competing fiercly in the late 90's early noughties..

[ChrisPage]

Originally Posted by Kempi

I won't take part in the dead horse beating on whether there truely were driving aids or not, but insinuating TGF was responsible for Senna's death because he allegedly cheated, as has been hinted at in this thread, is quite something. And not really something positive.

Yes, absolutely.

If (and its a pretty damn big if from what we know) Senna was driving outside of himself to beat a faster (even if illegally so) car then that is the choice any (most/all) racing driver makes. When you make the decision to be a competitor in a very dangerous sport you then make the choice of where your lines and limits where, and you make them for yourself. End of.

As for lauding Schmacher as a cheat for taking advantage of a system they could keep secret enough for the FIA to not deem it illegal - show me any 1 driver or team who has ever resisted that temptation to push the rules in that way? That doesn't make it right to the fans, but to demonise one driver for it? Unfair.

Do any of you think Senna or Prost or any of the greats wouldn't have done the exact same given half a chance?

JV's comments certainly add weight to what we already believe about 1994, but its hardly a smoking gun now is it?

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Thundersports

Two Benetton B194s ran in Euroboss there was a "facility" to run them with traction control and launch control........when one was put up for sale it even stated in the advert that it had traction control!

That does not prove Benetton used traction control in 1994. It could be that Benetton reprogrammed their software before they sold it, to allow the buyer to drive the car more safely, to increase the engine's and tyres' life span and to reduce fuel consumption.
In fact, by 1994 it was not forbidden to have traction control software programmed on the on-board computer; only the usage of such software was prohibited. That year, Benetton fully admitted they still had traction control software programmed on their on-board computer, but denied they ever used it and stated they lacked the software required to enable the traction control. The FIA could not prove Benetton had broken the rules and the team was acquitted.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Or a bad one!

Even DC was a often a better 'starter' than Schu when they were competing fiercly in the late 90's early noughties..

Around that time McLaren was accused of using traction control too. Remember the start of the 2000 Japanese Grand Prix: Hakkinen had an amazing start with the rear wheel temporarily not accelerating.
But Hakkinen is not German, is he?

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by wnut

And Schumacher is still probably the fastest starting driver on the grid.

Although it is easier to make your way forward easier in a car that you team mate has out qualified you by a whole second in

Michaels starts and progress have been immense whilst his qualifying has been awful

[Super Hans]

JV is just the latest of many to question the legality of the B194. Respect journalists, drivers and team owners have spoken out about the traction control, but it's never been wholly proved.

Schumacher was obviously a great driver, but that doesn't disprove the '94 allegations.

[johnny99]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Around that time McLaren was accused of using traction control too. Remember the start of the 2000 Japanese Grand Prix: Hakkinen had an amazing start with the rear wheel temporarily not accelerating.
But Hakkinen is not German, is he?

If memory serves me well, I remenber McLaren denied using TC, but Ron Dennis did say in an interview that McLaren had a "throttle modulation system",

John

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by johnny99

If memory serves me well, I remenber McLaren denied using TC, but Ron Dennis did say in an interview that McLaren had a "throttle modulation system",

John

A bit like Jean Todt saying the F2000 had "traction enhancement systems"?

[garcon]

Briatore was a cheat, and the sport is better without him.

But to claim that whatever happened in 1994 somehow diminishes Schumacher's subsequent success is grasping at straws.

As for any influence that may have had on Senna's tragic death, I agree with those who say it had none. And to those desperately trying to pin some blame on Schumacher and Briatore for their hero's death, maybe they should remember that Senna's on track morals were no different to Schumacher's.

I also happen to think history may one day prove that while the obvious pantomime villain is Briatore, and so many non-tifosi F1 fans are convinced of Ferrari's cheating, McLaren under Dennis were up to at least as much skulduggery as anyone else.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by garcon

As for any influence that may have had on Senna's tragic death, I agree with those who say it had none. And to those desperately trying to pin some blame on Schumacher and Briatore for their hero's death, maybe they should remember that Senna's on track morals were no different to Schumacher's.

This is the key point, I think. Senna pioneered the win-at-all-costs approach that Schumacher went on to perfect. Besides, any attempt to blame a driver's death on an opposing team, unless the team in question was directly involved in the accident, is crass in the extreme.

[gttouring]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

looking 20 years down the road i wonder if we will be reading 'there is no way Vettel was 1 second faster than me in the same car' stories.

Webber has said that all along.
even when he won a race "not bad for a #2 eh?"
AussieGrit is fast and vettel may be getting preferential treatment, but you gotta go faster and get your starts better mark.

as far as JV versus MS- well even when aids were gone- he was still winning, and when you disappeared well MS ended up winning 7 WDC's and be part of almost every record there is...

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Around that time McLaren was accused of using traction control too. Remember the start of the 2000 Japanese Grand Prix: Hakkinen had an amazing start with the rear wheel temporarily not accelerating.
But Hakkinen is not German, is he?

McLaren did have that system found in 1998 with a small brake pedal on the left that the driver could use to apply a bit of rear brake to moderate rear wheel spin. I think by 2000 it was legislated out, but maybe Mclaren found another way to do it that was not as obvious.

[Paradise City]

Well, Verstappen seems to be throwing out circumstantial evidence and drivers intuition. Not good enough. If he had a witness or he himself witnessed named technicians put some funny bot into Schuie's Benetton then we might have something to add to the FIA body of evidence from '94. So I can only assume Jos is mischiefmaking/attention seeking and some mercenary journo is only too delighted to go along with that.