Have overtaking initiatives improved F1 ?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

But F1 is a trillion dollar business, with global visibility.

But the laws of physics remain the same.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

But the laws of physics remain the same.

I think what he is saying though is that F1 should not have to rely on wings opening and closing in a chosen section on a race track to make an overtaking manoeuvre happen..

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I think what he is saying though is that F1 should not have to rely on wings opening and closing in a chosen section on a race track to make an overtaking manoeuvre happen..

I think that what he was saying is that F1 should open up the engine rules again and let the devil take the hindmost.

In any case, the 2014 regulations will allow you to have an engine that is as powerful as you like, but you will only have around 130 Kgs of fuel to cover the required distance. Engine/KERS strategy is going to be a big thing in 2014.

[chillibowl]

if the new regs solves the problem then im ok with no DRS but until then i like the DRS zone.

they learned how to tweak the zone spacing from it becoming too easy and apart from a few of the early races i cant really think of an example of a slower car using the zone to pass a faster car. it really just helps the faster car get on with it so i have no problem with it being bad for 'racing' since racing is about the faster car getting ahead.

[JeremySmith]

If I had to choose one added gizmo it would be KERS, DRS is just too much of a gimmick for my taste, but to each his own..

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

No. Overtaking wasn't prominent in the mid 80's, but I'd watch a parade of turbo beasts controlled by the driver before I'd watch today's F1.

This. I've been going nostalgia with the races of the early to mid 80's on youtube and they are a joy to watch. They might only have two to three actual passes the entire race but the passing was meaningful. It was a gradual hunt to catch the leading driver that was packed with suspense fueled by Murray's impassioned commentary. The tension only builds as the hunt reaches the climax and when the car behind finally passes the car in front, its a heroic effort from muscular cars.

It's press the button passing now. Sometimes the cars this year even lazily moved over knowing that they'd sail past with ease, their button pressed at the next straight. That kind of stuff leaves me with a sense of dissatisfaction as a fan of racing.

It all reminds me of the Harry Enfield jockey sketch.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

This. I've been going nostalgia with the races of the early to mid 80's on youtube and they are a joy to watch. They might only have two to three actual passes the entire race but the passing was meaningful. It was a gradual hunt to catch the leading driver that was packed with suspense fueled by Murray's impassioned commentary. The tension only builds as the hunt reaches the climax and when the car behind finally passes the car in front, its a heroic effort from muscular cars.

It's press the button passing now. Sometimes the cars this year even lazily moved over knowing that they'd sail past with ease, their button pressed at the next straight. That kind of stuff leaves me with a sense of dissatisfaction as a fan of racing.

It all reminds me of the Harry Enfield jockey sketch.

It's a balance isn't it? It should not be so difficult that there are only a few passes a season but it still has to be possible.

I can't be bothered to dig out the posts but when the overtaking group were trying to spice things up I was not taken seriously on this forum when I said "be careful what you wish for you'll be saying in a year or two that passing is it too easy"

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

It's a balance isn't it? It should not be so difficult that there are only a few passes a season but it still has to be possible.

I can't be bothered to dig out the posts but when the overtaking group were trying to spice things up I was not taken seriously on this forum when I said "be careful what you wish for you'll be saying in a year or two that passing is it too easy"

The second I heard about that working group I knew there would be trouble. Lots of people were talking up the working group but they too knew in their hearts of hearts, trouble was coming.

I heard about that working group and I had a nagging fear they'd recommend splitting the race into a doubleheader, cram success ballast, reverse grids and the whole schmozzle into the weekend. The way Briatore had been talking about as far back as the mid-90's. That didn't happen, at least.

[Marbot]

F1's problem was that it needed to do something about overtaking without removing so much aero that the cars would be barely faster than a GP2 car.* Some say that they are barely faster than a GP2 car, even now. If an F1 engine were put into a GP2 car it would barely make it any quicker (600 bhp vs 750 bhp). The main reason that an F1 car is quicker is because of aero. It's why a Ferrari F1 car is much quicker than an HRT F1 car and why an HRT car finds it difficult to be any quicker than a GP2 car.

I suppose the best way of improving overtaking is for the FIA to cut the aero on all of its open wheel series cars, but not all open wheel cars belong in FIA series.

*There's that big grey animal in the relatively small enclosed space, again.

[Peralta]

I honestly think we should go far as to eliminate tyre stops as well. I say full tanks and I set of tyres to complete the race. Get rid of DRS keep kers. This wY all passing will be done on the track without driver aids of any kind. Qualifying wl stay the same but because it will be a sprint rather than an endurance race position will be more important as it was in the past. The good drivers who look after their machinery will do well as well as drivers with balls who pass when they see an opening. Basically formula ford type racing with formula one machinery.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Peralta

I honestly think we should go far as to eliminate tyre stops as well. I say full tanks and I set of tyres to complete the race. Get rid of DRS keep kers. This wY all passing will be done on the track without driver aids of any kind. Qualifying wl stay the same but because it will be a sprint rather than an endurance race position will be more important as it was in the past. The good drivers who look after their machinery will do well as well as drivers with balls who pass when they see an opening. Basically formula ford type racing with formula one machinery.

hmmm....no. I can only envisage lots of very processional races with modern F1 machinery. Tyre technology has got to the point where Pirelli can make a tyre that's just as quick at the end of the race as it was at the beginning because they can trade performance for durability all day long. I suppose that you could have another tyre war..........

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Marbot

hmmm....no. I can only envisage lots of very processional races with modern F1 machinery. Tyre technology has got to the point where Pirelli can make a tyre that's just as quick at the end of the race as it was at the beginning because they can trade performance for durability all day long. I suppose that you could have another tyre war..........

My personal view is that tyre stops promote interesting racing because teams can do the unexpected and change strategy on the fly whereas fuel stops wreck it because of their predictability (when the tanks empty you gotta stop!).

[stripedcat]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

This. I've been going nostalgia with the races of the early to mid 80's on youtube and they are a joy to watch. They might only have two to three actual passes the entire race but the passing was meaningful. It was a gradual hunt to catch the leading driver that was packed with suspense fueled by Murray's impassioned commentary. The tension only builds as the hunt reaches the climax and when the car behind finally passes the car in front, its a heroic effort from muscular cars.

It's press the button passing now. Sometimes the cars this year even lazily moved over knowing that they'd sail past with ease, their button pressed at the next straight. That kind of stuff leaves me with a sense of dissatisfaction as a fan of racing.

It all reminds me of the Harry Enfield jockey sketch.

I think what you notice about the 1980s turbo charged races was the fact that the leader could get caught and passed in the race. It happened when trying to lap the backmarkers(back to the old blue flag rule). Nowadays that rarely happens, especially if you are Vettel ! But, thinking back to a lot of races in the 1990s with Schumi and perhaps one of the Williams cars(with J.V. or Damon Hill) that didn't happen so much.

I accept it is about a certain type of racing. I think people want to be able to see a car get side-by-side or into braking zone, and not just sail by, which happened sometimes with DRS.

The old problem of dirty air is still with us. It does effect other single seater racing forumale as well. Maybe the return to a more ground effect type of car might help matters as well as introducing some more banked corners into F1 tracks(like at Indy and Brazil's final corner).

The trouble is F1 designers are very clever and as soon as a way is found to reduce the downforce, by the end of the season they would have found a way to put it back into the car again.

Interesting James Allen suggested leaving the aero alone and introducing more fragile tyres and an old fashioned manual gate gearstick. I don't know what people's thoughts on that are.

[Marbot]

Pirelli are said to be going more aggressive on the tyre front. For example, the 'soft' tyre used at the Brazilian GP will be the 'medium' tyre for 2012.

Totally manual gear-shifting is an idea that I like, particularly if missing a gear means that you're one engine down for the rest of the season. Apparently, even though the engines are rev limited, it's still possible to do some damage if they hit the limiter hard enough. Maldonado's engine failure at the Indian GP being a good example, leading also to a grid penalty at Abu Dhabi.

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by stripedcat

Interesting James Allen suggested leaving the aero alone and introducing more fragile tyres and an old fashioned manual gate gearstick. I don't know what people's thoughts on that are.

Originally Posted by Marbot

Totally manual gear-shifting is an idea that I like,

And steel brake discs

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Totally manual gear-shifting is an idea that I like, particularly if missing a gear means that you're one engine down for the rest of the season....

does this also mean moving away from seamless transmissions, reverting to an older style gearbox, no hydraulics and so on and would a fully manual set up allow for better fuel efficiency in the same way it does for a road car?

this is no where close to my area of expertise, but really i am in favour of anything that could potentially lead to greater unreliability or more failures...within reasonable safety standards of course.

[steve_r]

Artifically amending F1 to create overtaking is one thing, but artificially amending the rules to bring in more Mechanical failures is a bizarre idea.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

does this also mean moving away from seamless transmissions, reverting to an older style gearbox, no hydraulics and so on and would a fully manual set up allow for better fuel efficiency in the same way it does for a road car?

this is no where close to my area of expertise, but really i am in favour of anything that could potentially lead to greater unreliability or more failures...within reasonable safety standards of course.

It wouldn't. Seamless transmissions are miles more efficient than a manual would be, especially under race conditions. That's why the road car sector has moved to DSG in lieu of conventional manual setups.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Artifically amending F1 to create overtaking is one thing, but artificially amending the rules to bring in more Mechanical failures is a bizarre idea.

bizarre idea maybe but is a bad one?

i guess its weird. i miss the attrition and uncertainty we had in the past. maybe its just a case of rose coloured glasses.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

It wouldn't. Seamless transmissions are miles more efficient than a manual would be, especially under race conditions. That's why the road car sector has moved to DSG in lieu of conventional manual setups.

true true. didnt think of that. thanks

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

That's why the road car sector has moved to DSG in lieu of conventional manual setups.

DSG is still a very expensive way of changing gear.

Most cars in Europe still use the same manual system that's worked really well for many decades.

I currently own a car that has an 'Automated manual' transmission system, but that's more through necessity (currently I'm disabled) than choice.

[JamesH]

DSG - only used by the Volkswagen group I believe, and given that it is in effect two whole manual gearboxes in one box, a very very expensive proposition compared with a normal manual. Also mechanically less efficient than a standard manual (but better than an auto)

And very very expensive to repair.

Apart from that, "Theeeeerrrrrre Great!!!"

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by JamesH

DSG - only used by the Volkswagen group I believe

And BMW, Ferrari, Ford, McLaren, Mercedes (granted, only in the SLS), Mitsubishi, Nissan, Peugeot/Citroen and Renault (probably not a complete list). Obviously not under the same name, but dual clutch transmissions aren't that rare anymore.

[luke g28]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

bizarre idea maybe but is a bad one?

i guess its weird. i miss the attrition and uncertainty we had in the past. maybe its just a case of rose coloured glasses.

Its working towards a historic or heritage season which is a separate competition all together

[Pingguest]

Formula 1 has been facing a lack of close racing and passing since the rise of aerodynamics, especially since the mid-1990s. As the legislator allowed an arm race in the area of aerodynamics but curtailed or even eliminated such in other areas, it failed to address this issue.

Since a couple of years the legislator has been introducing new regulations with the sole purpose to artificially add excitement to the racing. Most rule changes did not do much good to the series, as very little excitement was added and the sport lost authenticity. For 2011 new formal and informal regulations were introduced, again in an effort to add more excitement to the racing. Pirelli, the new tyre monopolist, was given a mandate to supply tyres with a very limited longevity and with which it would be very hard to find the optimum pit stop strategy. A drag reduction system (hereinafter referred as ‘DRS’) that allowed drivers to gain an aerodynamic performance advantage was introduced as well. Drivers were only allowed to use it under certain, strictly regulated circumstances if equally strictly regulated requirements were met.
Now the season has come to an end, it is time to reflect on the new regulations. It must be said that the new regulations allowed more passing. In fact, the spectator never saw more passing than in the 2011 season. But that does not necessarily mean the new regulations did the sport very well. Once again the sport lost much of its purity and authenticity: nowadays the action is more or less orchestrated. Again the legislator used unconventional means to add excitement and paid a high price for it, as the series lost even more sportsmanship and thereby credibility.
Something else that worth mentioning, is the new regulations did not really address the issue stated above. As teams and their drivers started to learn the new tyres and DRS well, the dullness came back. Drivers started to use DRS strategically to defend their position – for instance Schumacher in Italy and Webber in Korea – and teams started to use more of the same pit stop strategies. In that respect the last couple of the 2011 races really were illustrative. No wonder those races received low(er) ratings from the spectators.

Thus the new regulations have not improved Formula 1. In fact, it proves the series continuously fails to address its main issue. In my view the root cause is that Formula 1 still does not know where it should be heading to. See my previous posts in the thread about the 2014 engine regulations.