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Old 4 Apr 2004, 23:03 (Ref:930304)   #26
Teretonga
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Mercedes may own 40 % of McLaren but it might be better if thay owned nothing and McLaren was free to go elsewhere for their engine supply and manufacturer tie-ups. This is embarrassing for everyone and there are obviously some major problems in the engineering departments at Ilmor and at Maccas. I don't believe they have designed two duds in a row but you have to wondeer about ron's battle to keep Newey a few years ago. Nothing against Adrian but turnover keeps a team on it's toes and fresh blood keeps the team moving forward to a degree. I do believe in stability but I also believe inertia and stagnation are not suitable attributes for F1 teams and I wonder if Mclaren needs to do some house cleaning. The staff may all be great but something is clearly not gelling at Paragon and it needs to change.

Last edited by Teretonga; 4 Apr 2004 at 23:08.
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 04:46 (Ref:930506)   #27
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Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
They've not moved into Paragon yet.....

Anyway - the problem lies not with Adrian but with Mercedes.

Put a Toyota engine in the MP4-19 and it would at least be up there with BAR and Williams.
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 05:19 (Ref:930522)   #28
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mark_l should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridmark_l should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Mercedes do not have engine failures.

The cars suffer hydraulic or electical systems failure (usually caused by a piston going through the related part on its way to the outside world)

Last edited by mark_l; 5 Apr 2004 at 05:19.
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 06:06 (Ref:930555)   #29
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Re: Mercedes - an utter disgrace

Quote:
Originally posted by knowlesy

Basically, this is a long running problem and I'm surprised Ron Dennis doesn't show more dissapointment about it. He is far too restrained.

Too restrained, or too professional?

Imo, the biggest problems are...
  • Still suffering from the death of Paul Morgan
  • Having trouble perfecting the twin clutch system........"the holy grail of engine building"
  • Merc don't do the work "in house" like Ferrari, BMW, Renault, Honda etc, but "contract out" to Ilmor.

Last edited by Mr V; 5 Apr 2004 at 06:09.
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 07:34 (Ref:930615)   #30
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Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Ron would never slag off the engine supplier.

Even between 1990 and 1991, when Honda changed from a V10 to a V12 which was heavier but had no more power than the old one, he didn't criticise it.

When the Peugeot engines constantly detonated in 1994, Ron allowed them to be described as electrical problems.

He realises there's nothing to be gained by publicly criticising the engine maker.

Behind closed doors though, he'll be fuming.
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 07:51 (Ref:930633)   #31
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climb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridclimb should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Congrats to Ron, but the problem is really amazing; a freshly mounted engine, with no quals to stand, blows up after a pocketful of laps, we can give many explanatiomns about how it al happended, but why it did is real mistery.
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 07:54 (Ref:930637)   #32
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Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Ferrari had very unreliable engines in the past - now they're powerful and reliable.

Hopefully Mercedes can do the same.
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 08:11 (Ref:930647)   #33
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Gt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGt_R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
IMO,One problem with Mercedes/Mclaren is that knowing the gap to Ferrari is so huge, instead of merely trying to catch up, they try to out-do Ferrari, and tried to take things way too far. On paper, Mclaren is one of the most advanced car with the latest technology, ideas,lots of special material, parts..but it isn't fully tested properly, brings the car too much over limit of tolerance and the end result is a car that fails often.

And funny thing that after Ferrari won their first recent WDC/WCC in 2000, Ron said something along the line that "Ferrari didn't win it, Mclaren lost it...and hopefully they'd have to wait another 21 years for their next title"... well..Ferrari went on to conquer every year since then.. Well done Ferrari..buck up Mercedes!

But frankly, i think Mclaren/Mercedes should pull back abit on their ideas/concepts and try something a bit more conservative than what they have now...just to gain more data/information before they go for a big leap.
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 10:32 (Ref:930782)   #34
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BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Kicking-back
The engine could be worth a second a lap.

The other few tenths come from having to run less downforce to cope with having no power.
Nailed it perfectly. Considering how good McLaren are famed for be with low tyre wear, and Kimi's undoubted progress in the last 2 years, they would be close to Ferrari if it weren't for the engine. Put a Toyota or Ferrari unit in there and they'd defiantely have a win by now, if not more.
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 10:51 (Ref:930806)   #35
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Kicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKicking-back should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
It must be so frustrating for Ron and Adrian having to hear the fans having a go at them when in actual fact they've done wonders to be as competitive as they have when the engine's been getting compartively worse every year.
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 10:55 (Ref:930814)   #36
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OVERSTEER should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Personally if I was a team boss, i'd come out on live TV and say the engine is ****!
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 11:49 (Ref:930879)   #37
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I agree with pretty much everythign here, IMHO the biggest lacking factor in the Macca/merc package is the fact the engine is woefully underpowered and unreliable.
Not only is it hurting the image of Merc, but they really really need to sort out their public relations. I mean come on, when its obvious on TV that its the ENGINE that has failed, don't go round saying your not sure, until you can get it back to have a look...
Also giving the ITV guys a "wrap on the knuckles" (JR's words) for stating it was an engine failure for kimi early in the weekend, when it "apparently" wasn't is just plain stupid, and a good way to get the media to turn against you.
Haug and Co need to sort that out, as it is now just coming across as arogance...

If Merc do take over McLaren, I seriously fear for the competitiveness of the team, as it just doesn't seem to be coping at the moment (ok not as bad as maybe the mid nineties).
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 11:49 (Ref:930880)   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by OVERSTEER
Personally if I was a team boss, i'd come out on live TV and say the engine is ****!
or say the engine is "a bloody mess"...
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 12:11 (Ref:930902)   #39
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Thats the first time Ive ever seen an electrical failure that has resulted in flames extending 3 feet behind the car and anough smoke to think the Gulf war was back on again.

The Grumpy1

Last edited by grumpy1; 5 Apr 2004 at 12:12.
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 12:13 (Ref:930903)   #40
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Originally posted by kdr
or say the engine is "a bloody mess"...
warning Off topic.....
Its a good job patrick knows how to speak his mind eh, i don't think ralf will be a williams driver for much longer....

Last edited by Try Hard; 5 Apr 2004 at 12:13.
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 13:16 (Ref:931026)   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by mark_l
Mercedes do not have engine failures.

The cars suffer hydraulic or electical systems failure (usually caused by a piston going through the related part on its way to the outside world)

Spot on!
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 15:07 (Ref:931154)   #42
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The reason Ron Dennis will not criticise Mercedes is down to the McLaren "ABC", Always Be Corporate.

And also that he is trying to sell his share of Mclaren to Mercedes to fund his retirement. Now Jurgen Hubbert has left I dont think RD will be around for long.
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 15:50 (Ref:931198)   #43
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Don K has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Well, I *did* like the way Coulthard managed to park his broken car very close to two Mercedes cars that were obviously still working ...
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 16:44 (Ref:931231)   #44
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The faster Mercedes fall and sell their share of Mac, the better. I don't like Maclaren but I have an active dislike of the Mercedes corporation.

The sooner Honda/BMW/Renault blow them out of the water, the better.
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 16:46 (Ref:931234)   #45
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f1truestory has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
i would like to see kimi in a ferrari now.
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Old 5 Apr 2004, 19:49 (Ref:931455)   #46
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New Spokesman

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Originally posted by OVERSTEER
Personally if I was a team boss, i'd come out on live TV and say the engine is ****!


He's baaaack!



http://fiesta.focuscosworth.co.uk/ch...2004529607.jpg

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Old 5 Apr 2004, 22:39 (Ref:931639)   #47
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Ahhh settle down McLaren fans Mercedes will have it figured out soon enough, if not this year then the next for sure.

In the meantime...welcome to my world that was Honda while Villeneuve drove for them...try taking five years of pathetic engine making, then feel free to lash out.
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Doesn't it seem sad that drivers like Fisichella, Coultard, Barrichello, and Ralf all have secure seats in F1, despite having had race winning cars for many more seasons than Jacques, yet failing to chalk up as many wins as he (let alone a WDC) that it is Jacques who doesn't have a drive in F1??? Sad indeed.
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