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Old 11 Jan 2019, 22:21 (Ref:3875619)   #3361
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Wolff on record that 2019 aero changes won't change an awful lot.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/911863...wful-lot-wolff

ďThe aim was to take away some of the aero and direct the airflow over the top of the car but they fight 2000 aerodynamicists in all the teams and I think we have found solutions to get the air around the car, so itís not going to change an awful lot,Ē Wolff added.
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Old 28 Jan 2019, 01:12 (Ref:3880092)   #3362
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https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...ding-arms-race

Liberty's latest agenda:

Preventing a manufacturer's arms race.
Limiting the cost of engines - good.
Breaking the Ferrari Haas partnership at Mercedes behest - bad.

"Mercedes has been as anxious to defend against Ferrari gaining an advantage from the arrangement as the independent teams have been to prevent Haas getting one up on them.
Haasís punching-above-its-weight performance last season has probably brought this to a head."
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Old 28 Jan 2019, 15:09 (Ref:3880216)   #3363
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...ding-arms-race

Liberty's latest agenda:

Preventing a manufacturer's arms race.
Limiting the cost of engines - good.
Breaking the Ferrari Haas partnership at Mercedes behest - bad.

"Mercedes has been as anxious to defend against Ferrari gaining an advantage from the arrangement as the independent teams have been to prevent Haas getting one up on them.
Haas’s punching-above-its-weight performance last season has probably brought this to a head."
I would say a missing part of your commentary is that the article talks about cost caps as part of this. I think that if cost caps is a part of their strategy then trying to reign in something like the Ferrari/Haas relationship may be involved. I can think of two related reasons...

1. If you put cost caps on teams, then part of this will be associated rules to try to prevent funding of development that happens outside of cost caps. One way to do this is to have two teams that are operating with roughly the same technical solution. So you would get 2x the budget to develop what is "roughly" the same car.

2. To potentially get the large teams to agree to cost caps, you have to close the obvious loop holes that others may already be exploiting. So Ferrari + Haas and maybe even more so in the near future RBR + Toro Rosso.

Depending upon ownership, the slave teams may have little or no expectation to "perform" against the master team. But rather they act as sort of a on-track test team. Very much like TR was during 2018 for RBR. Granted, the master team doesn't want the slave team to trundle around at the rear, they want the concepts to do well and score points off the "second tier" teams.

Related to this is the entire "customer car" idea which at it's core (I think) is to effectively abolish the "Appendix 6 Listed Parts" from the Sporting Regulations that defines the items that are exclusive to a given team. Currently that is...

* Survival cell
* Front impact structure
* Roll structure
* Most of the bodywork

For the most part, that means the chassis (with bodywork) minus suspension, power-train and misc other bits.

So for the current Ferrari/Haas scenario they are using the same suspension and this works as it is not on the list above. Mercedes wants to expand that list to include more items. I assume that includes at least the suspension.

This goes backwards from the idea of a customer car.

Maybe an alternate solution is to create an additional category of items. This category would say that a team can create their own, or use a third party solution, but if more than one team uses the solution the IP owner can't restrict access to the parts. So in this scenario, if Ferrari decides to provide it's suspension to Haas, it has to make it available to other teams. There would have to be language around reasonable costs, etc.

Maybe that approach would be too complex. To be honest, what Mercedes proposes is a simple solution, but it does move further away from allowing customer cars. What needs to be found is a way to incentivize teams to rely upon off the shelf components for the basis stuff (provided by the larger community of third party providers) vs. develop and manufacture bespoke equivalents in-house. Those should be open to purchase by anyone and live outside of the cost caps.

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Old 28 Jan 2019, 21:15 (Ref:3880291)   #3364
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to be honest, im of a mind to think that if Merc dont like it im in favour of it.

but seriously i would like to see more cooperation between a manufacturer and their customer?

Ferrari should help Sauber and Haas more, RBR should help STR, Renault and Mclaren...actually these two well established and financed teams could really change the entire game if they could somehow came up with 4 world beating cars at the same time.

and frankly Merc should be doing more with Williams and FI/RP.

have seen the version of F1 where its a manu vs manu arms race, cost spiraling, and privateers failing to keep up...maybe its time to try another way. lets see what happens when they try cooperation instead of divide and conquer.
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Old 28 Jan 2019, 22:14 (Ref:3880300)   #3365
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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
to be honest, im of a mind to think that if Merc dont like it im in favour of it.

but seriously i would like to see more cooperation between a manufacturer and their customer?

Ferrari should help Sauber and Haas more, RBR should help STR, Renault and Mclaren...actually these two well established and financed teams could really change the entire game if they could somehow came up with 4 world beating cars at the same time.

and frankly Merc should be doing more with Williams and FI/RP.

have seen the version of F1 where its a manu vs manu arms race, cost spiraling, and privateers failing to keep up...maybe its time to try another way. lets see what happens when they try cooperation instead of divide and conquer.
I hear what your saying, but what happens when "cooperation" really is "cooption" (i.e. assimilation) under the covers. When smaller teams effectively become dependent upon and subservient to the larger teams? Do we EVER think we will see a team use components from a larger team and use them better than the larger team and challenging them? Does this not just ensure that the smaller teams are grid fillers in a second tier? Providing the appearance of real competition so as to justify the existence of the larger teams and the series a whole?

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Old 29 Jan 2019, 02:37 (Ref:3880336)   #3366
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
I hear what your saying, but what happens when "cooperation" really is "cooption" (i.e. assimilation) under the covers. When smaller teams effectively become dependent upon and subservient to the larger teams? Do we EVER think we will see a team use components from a larger team and use them better than the larger team and challenging them? Does this not just ensure that the smaller teams are grid fillers in a second tier? Providing the appearance of real competition so as to justify the existence of the larger teams and the series a whole?

Richard
Seems to be pretty much what we have with the satellite teams relying on engine supplies, when do you expect a satellite team to beat the manufacturer?

The only thing that this would seem to change would be to force Mercedes closer to the teams they supply in order to cover off the Ferrari threat.

P.S. Richard, I just ignored the cost cap commentary as I believe it to be unrealistic and unenforceable fantasy!

Last edited by wnut; 29 Jan 2019 at 02:46.
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Old 29 Jan 2019, 16:06 (Ref:3880468)   #3367
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agree with wnut..this is pretty much what we have now.

also no post from me would be complete without me saying the probelm isnt supply deals but really about relative budget sizes so here goes!

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Do we EVER think we will see a team use components from a larger team and use them better than the larger team and challenging them?
if by larger team you mean a manufacturer team then yes we have seen this happen most recently with RBR and their customer Renault engine deal....although i wouldn't say they cooperated with each other!

RBR's advantage was partially ingenuity but beyond that they had lots and lots of money and when they were winning titles they were outspending their supplier as well as the rest of their competition.

obviously with me, the main differentiator is budget size so yes, i think a customer team with a sufficient budget can beat its suppler.

failing that though, why not make things easier for the 2nd tier?

allowing them to spend less money and stay financially healthy while they fill out positions 4-10 on the table seems like a good start particularity when there is no viable plan to control budgets.
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Old 29 Jan 2019, 17:29 (Ref:3880482)   #3368
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also no post from me would be complete without me saying the probelm isnt supply deals but really about relative budget sizes so here goes!
So... In the end, I agree that relative budget sizes is the problem and fiddling with everything else is screwing around and organizing the deck chairs.

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if by larger team you mean a manufacturer team then yes we have seen this happen most recently with RBR and their customer Renault engine deal....although i wouldn't say they cooperated with each other!
I will say that as Mercedes switched from just an engine supplier to full on team they were in the same boat as well. But it a temporary special case that is never likely to last. Nobody beats Mercedes when using Mercedes power now and I expect the same will hold true eventually for Renault (if they can keep their act together). Note... regardless of how it happened... RBR can no longer beat Renault using Renault power.

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obviously with me, the main differentiator is budget size so yes, i think a customer team with a sufficient budget can beat its suppler.
Of which that scenario is rapidly becoming a unicorn. Who will have funding to match a mature Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault? RBR? They have effectively absorbed Honda as even they know superior funding and the best people can't clear that hurdle in the long run.

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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
failing that though, why not make things easier for the 2nd tier?

allowing them to spend less money and stay financially healthy while they fill out positions 4-10 on the table seems like a good start particularity when there is no viable plan to control budgets.
All just a delaying tactic. I can't argue with the need for it, but it clearly is grasping at straws to just "survive". I don't think it's anything to celebrate. And moving more in that direction (increasing the dependency) is just a sad commentary of where we are today and the prospective future.

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Old 29 Jan 2019, 17:31 (Ref:3880483)   #3369
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P.S. Richard, I just ignored the cost cap commentary as I believe it to be unrealistic and unenforceable fantasy!
Ask the question... why does everyone fight so hard to not do it? And who would fight the hardest? If it actually worked who would be the winners and who the looser.

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Old 29 Jan 2019, 18:19 (Ref:3880493)   #3370
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Of which that scenario is rapidly becoming a unicorn. Who will have funding to match a mature Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault? RBR? They have effectively absorbed Honda as even they know superior funding and the best people can't clear that hurdle in the long run.
in fairness its just two teams.

who can hope to match the funding of Merc and Ferrari and if Ferrari lose their special payments then arguably its just Merc no?

will have to see if RBR-Honda are up to spend as much as Merc and Ferrari.

Renault, while spending more year on year, dont seem as keen to hit Merc's budget.

anyways, if we genuinely had 4 teams capable of winning a title...rather if we had 4 teams at the top with similar budgets, we (well myself anyways) would probably not care as much about budgets or the financial health of the smaller teams. there would be more than enough competition at the sharp end.

but its not that so yeah they need to worry about creating the illusion of competition and you cant do that when all but 6 cars are getting lapped by the first round of pit stops. an exaggeration of course but not far from the truth given how many cars fail to finish a race on the lead lap.

so indeed, how can one be expected to compete against mature teams that have years if not decades of making capital improvements to their facilities and the annual budget to make use of those facilities?

the fact that a well funded independent (outside of the RBs of course) are becoming unicorns surely just highlights the need for more favorable commercial deals..whether that be prize money, price caps on engines, greater use of parts designed by a patron team. it certainly doesnt detract from the idea.

to each their own of course but i dont think it cheapens the sport at all.

Haas' and Sauber's success this year, FI over the last few years...for me these have been the highlights of recent seasons and all of it aided by more favorable supply deals from a 'master' team.

these have arguably been F1's most successful story lines. encouraging this is not grasping at straws imo.

plus its better for the drivers in those small teams!
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Old 29 Jan 2019, 19:20 (Ref:3880506)   #3371
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Haas' and Sauber's success this year, FI over the last few years...for me these have been the highlights of recent seasons and all of it aided by more favorable supply deals from a 'master' team.
I still think it's mostly a feel good thing. I personally think something special is going on at FI and wish I really understood what. Given the drama at the team... punching way above their weight. But otherwise it still is a master slave scenario that we are expanding here and it's teams like Williams that are trying to go at it alone, but finding they can't make it work. So they are likely to get in line with the new world order as well.

As to Mercedes opposition, maybe I think Mercedes realizes that they may eventually have to outright buy a secondary team if things continue down this path. Buying to ensure they can pull the strings correctly and are trying to avoid having to do that. Probably as their budget is large enough as it is, let alone having another large mouth to feed.

I apologize as this all seems very "doom and gloom" from me. I just think there is more smoke and mirrors going on than people realize. I do find ways to be excited about F1. I can join in on the self delusion and enjoy like most fans. There remains bits and pieces that truly are authentic.

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Old 29 Jan 2019, 20:26 (Ref:3880512)   #3372
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I think itís always helped that Ferrari, Merc and Renault are happy to supply other teams, so it helps out there situation enormously
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Old 29 Jan 2019, 22:14 (Ref:3880531)   #3373
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I still think it's mostly a feel good thing. I personally think something special is going on at FI and wish I really understood what. Given the drama at the team... punching way above their weight. But otherwise it still is a master slave scenario that we are expanding here and it's teams like Williams that are trying to go at it alone, but finding they can't make it work. So they are likely to get in line with the new world order as well.
always comes back to Williams... i lament their decline as well but surely their decline is not primarily the result of FI taking more help form Merc or Haas from Ferrari.

i do think they should have accepted more from Merc as they always could have gone back to building their own gearbox down the road...i guess we will see where they are next year (cant come soon enough right?)

for the record i do hope that they do find a way back and if its on their own terms then so much the better but given how many times they have put their hands into a drivers pocket im not so sure they can say that they go at this thing alone.

anyways didnt think your posts were doom and gloom...as per usual i thought they were very much on point!
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Old 30 Jan 2019, 09:32 (Ref:3880630)   #3374
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Ask the question... why does everyone fight so hard to not do it? And who would fight the hardest? If it actually worked who would be the winners and who the looser.

Richard

I just can't see a manufacturer agreeing to have auditors paw through their accounts at the behest of the marketing department complying with a Liberty edict. There would also be so many loopholes that the whole exercise would be a pointless waste of time.
Far easier to restrict the technical aspects of F1, control tyres, control ECUs, limitations of allowed alloys etc.
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Old 30 Jan 2019, 09:48 (Ref:3880635)   #3375
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in fairness its just two teams.

who can hope to match the funding of Merc and Ferrari and if Ferrari lose their special payments then arguably its just Merc no?

will have to see if RBR-Honda are up to spend as much as Merc and Ferrari.

Renault, while spending more year on year, dont seem as keen to hit Merc's budget.

anyways, if we genuinely had 4 teams capable of winning a title...rather if we had 4 teams at the top with similar budgets, we (well myself anyways) would probably not care as much about budgets or the financial health of the smaller teams. there would be more than enough competition at the sharp end.

but its not that so yeah they need to worry about creating the illusion of competition and you cant do that when all but 6 cars are getting lapped by the first round of pit stops. an exaggeration of course but not far from the truth given how many cars fail to finish a race on the lead lap.

so indeed, how can one be expected to compete against mature teams that have years if not decades of making capital improvements to their facilities and the annual budget to make use of those facilities?

the fact that a well funded independent (outside of the RBs of course) are becoming unicorns surely just highlights the need for more favorable commercial deals..whether that be prize money, price caps on engines, greater use of parts designed by a patron team. it certainly doesnt detract from the idea.

to each their own of course but i dont think it cheapens the sport at all.

Haas' and Sauber's success this year, FI over the last few years...for me these have been the highlights of recent seasons and all of it aided by more favorable supply deals from a 'master' team.

these have arguably been F1's most successful story lines. encouraging this is not grasping at straws imo.

plus its better for the drivers in those small teams!
I agree with your post, the only point I would make is that Merc have won 75% of the races in the hybrid era. Lewis has won 50.

I believe Merc are just sandbagging and riding a massive technological advantage, we saw their advantage in the 2017 Brazilian GP where Brundle was moved to say:

Lewis Hamilton's new engine and maximum attack pace at least gave Ferrari, Renault and Honda a clue as to how much power and efficiency they need to find this winter. And I doubt the GPS and sound analysis will make for happy reading, unless you're in Brixworth.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24...rack-in-brazil

I really don't think anything has changed, there is literally one car in the field driven by one driver, Lewis, capable of winning!

Merc have already been allowed to outspend everybody where it counts and will have an unfair advantage for as long as the current engine formula remains.

Nailed by you above:

to be honest, im of a mind to think that if Merc dont like it im in favour of it. Chillibowl
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