Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Sportscar & GT Racing

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 8 Apr 2007, 19:01 (Ref:1886590)   #26
bil588
Veteran
 
bil588's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
United States
Posts: 683
bil588 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHamilton
As beautiful of a car as it would be, I don't see any of them happening. Only "one-offs" from large manufacturers like Peugeot and Bentley, etc. That's my opinion of course.
Is AIM not giving them enough money for that project? what about the sale of two of their cars to alms teams?
bil588 is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Apr 2007, 19:02 (Ref:1886591)   #27
chewymonster
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 626
chewymonster should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The Porsche RS Spyder is expensive because it is a manufacturer built P2.
chewymonster is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Apr 2007, 20:25 (Ref:1886692)   #28
Purist
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
United States
Wichita, Kansas, USA
Posts: 5,892
Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!
The Porsche would NEED a serious re-work to put the flat-6 in. The car has a V8 right now. With the 6, you'd have to raise the engine to keep the lower cylinder banks from interfering with the undertray tunnels, diffuser, etc. That, in turn, would require a re-work of the rear-end aerodynamics to make sure they were getting adequate airflow over the rear wing.
Purist is offline  
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain.
Quote
Old 9 Apr 2007, 00:06 (Ref:1886872)   #29
bil588
Veteran
 
bil588's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
United States
Posts: 683
bil588 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
how could the AIM deal not give them the money needed for a p1 coupe?

http://www.the-paddock.net/sportscar...iew/240885/49/

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsjan07.html
bil588 is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Apr 2007, 06:28 (Ref:1886988)   #30
HORNDAWG
Veteran
 
HORNDAWG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
United States
Oregon
Posts: 8,919
HORNDAWG should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHORNDAWG should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHORNDAWG should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by bil588
how could the AIM deal not give them the money needed for a p1 coupe?

http://www.the-paddock.net/sportscar...iew/240885/49/

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsjan07.html

Why would the AIM deal give them money for a coupe?!!

L.P.
HORNDAWG is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Apr 2007, 17:05 (Ref:1887335)   #31
JAG
Veteran
 
JAG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
England
Posts: 10,500
JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purist
The Porsche would NEED a serious re-work to put the flat-6 in. The car has a V8 right now. With the 6, you'd have to raise the engine to keep the lower cylinder banks from interfering with the undertray tunnels, diffuser, etc. That, in turn, would require a re-work of the rear-end aerodynamics to make sure they were getting adequate airflow over the rear wing.
I'm mot saying modify the RS Spyder, but have P2 regs for 2010 that insist on GT2 spec engines (or heavily restricted race engines), and a minimum weight of 850kg.

A halfway house between LMP2 and Grand-Am DP.

If you have RS Spyder money, there's no reason why you cannot run in P1.
JAG is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Apr 2007, 21:27 (Ref:1887529)   #32
Purist
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
United States
Wichita, Kansas, USA
Posts: 5,892
Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!
Yeah there is. NOBODY is selling customer P1s that are likely to touch the Audis (and likely the Peugeots as well). And not even Porsche is looking at building one with the rules as they are. The privateers don't want to be pulverized by the diesels, which they can't buy even if they have the money (because Audi isn't selling R10s, period); Champion is by no means a privateer in the sense you guys are thinking.
Purist is offline  
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain.
Quote
Old 9 Apr 2007, 22:44 (Ref:1887593)   #33
bil588
Veteran
 
bil588's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
United States
Posts: 683
bil588 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
well the Monza lms race hasn't gotten underway yet
bil588 is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Apr 2007, 23:59 (Ref:1887631)   #34
broadrun96
Veteran
 
broadrun96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
United States
Posts: 11,212
broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!broadrun96 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
I'm mot saying modify the RS Spyder, but have P2 regs for 2010 that insist on GT2 spec engines (or heavily restricted race engines), and a minimum weight of 850kg.

A halfway house between LMP2 and Grand-Am DP.

If you have RS Spyder money, there's no reason why you cannot run in P1.
exactly what i was thinking except the the money thing will only work if the aco forces customer cars. i'm ok with a 2 year intro period before making the teams sell chassis to TRUE privateers to run as well, no requirement that they (the manufacturer) stay in the class after selling the chassis. but who knows my ideas tend to get ripped in secs after posting.
broadrun96 is online now  
Quote
Old 10 Apr 2007, 06:19 (Ref:1887693)   #35
Spyderman
Veteran
 
Spyderman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Mozambique
Mozambique
Posts: 4,642
Spyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by broadrun96
exactly what i was thinking except the the money thing will only work if the aco forces customer cars. i'm ok with a 2 year intro period before making the teams sell chassis to TRUE privateers to run as well, no requirement that they (the manufacturer) stay in the class after selling the chassis. but who knows my ideas tend to get ripped in secs after posting.
No Problem with all of this. The ACO can regulate the P2's into oblivion as long as the rules for P1 are modified and corrected.
Spyderman is offline  
Quote
Old 12 Apr 2007, 05:09 (Ref:1889457)   #36
sportscanyltics
Rookie
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 52
sportscanyltics has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Highly relevant to this discussion, I thought it would be appropriate to post a link to Sportscar Analytics' "The Le Mans Prototype: Where Things Went Wrong, and How to Fix It."

Both parts I and II are up, so hopefully it will add something to this discussion!

http://sportscaranalytics.wordpress.com/
sportscanyltics is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Apr 2007, 21:30 (Ref:1890738)   #37
Garp
Racer
 
Garp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
NLD
Posts: 182
Garp should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I Like the idea of GT2 engines in LMP2 cars.
This can be mandated by Regulation of usable engines
if they have a max of 4.000cc and a minimum production of around
1000 units.

Would this make the engine costs less?????

IMHO SCGT racing should be like;

LMP1 -> Closed prototypes
This class should be the main factory class with exellent
marketing opportunitys for the mfg. Maybe with race car derived super roadcars for brand building in mind. (900 kgs with 700 hp)

LMP2 -> Open prototypes
Purely privateers class with main focus on costs.
Prohibition of car mfg sponsorship. And clearly slower than LMP1
(production based engine with max 4.000cc and min 1000 units 700 kgs- 500hp)

I believe that the mfg should be motivated by exellent marketing opportunities of closed prototypes, and demotivated by the cheap championship winning of LMP2 racing.
Garp is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Apr 2007, 21:51 (Ref:1890744)   #38
AU N EGL
Veteran
 
AU N EGL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
United States
Raleigh, North Carolina
Posts: 4,418
AU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by sportscanyltics
Highly relevant to this discussion, I thought it would be appropriate to post a link to Sportscar Analytics' "The Le Mans Prototype: Where Things Went Wrong, and How to Fix It."

Both parts I and II are up, so hopefully it will add something to this discussion!

http://sportscaranalytics.wordpress.com/
Penske IS A priveteer team, not a factory team.

So maybe a bit more distinction as in tubs & chassies.

P2
P2 must be built by indpendent auto ( small manufatures- less then 250 road going units per year ) / motorsports teams,
min wt of 675 kg,
Powerplant: 4,000 cc NA 2,700 tubocharged ( or what ever equivlent between the two )
Fuel: Petrol ( provided by Fuel sponsor )
Independent teams and small manufactures( max 15% ownership by major auto manufacture) as above
Drivers: FIA B & C , third driver for races longer then 6 hours, FIA A, B or C

P1
P1 tubs and chassies built by or built for major auto manufactures.
Min Wt 900 Kg
Power plants: to 6 liters diesel, 7 liters NA, 5 liters turbo.
Fuel: Deisel and Petrol provided by fuel sponsor, alternative fuels to be approved by ACO / FIA and comercially avaible for 3 or more teams to run during the given race year calander.
Manufactures, Manufacture supported, Indpendent teams
Drivers: FIA A & B only

Last edited by AU N EGL; 13 Apr 2007 at 21:54.
AU N EGL is offline  
__________________
"When the fear of death out weighs the thrill of speed, brake." LG
Quote
Old 13 Apr 2007, 22:41 (Ref:1890762)   #39
Bob Riebe
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location:
Minnesota
Posts: 2,351
Bob Riebe User has been fined for unsportsmanlike behaviour!
How to fix it.

It is amazing all the fix-its are just more fascist dictatorial hot-air, that seems to be blind to the fact that racers race where they want, for their reasons.
If they do not like your rules they will either not show up, or leave.

Of course when it gets down to the last man, why should that one leave, he is one eyed man in the land of the blind.

Yep, we need more dictatorial edicts that can and will be ignored.
It no longer amazing, but rather sad, that it was when the sanctions started telling teams and drivers how to do their job, that the air began to leak out of the balloon, quite quickly.

As it stands now the ACO has no reason to worry as the only big competitors they have to worry about are in Europe just as they are, what happens in he US is totally irrelevant, but one would thnk the IMSA would seriously consider pulling its head out of its butt.

The "analytical" piece was well written, but from a horribfly either: a horribly myoptic view or with a gross amount of naivete, ignoring reality.

Bob
Bob Riebe is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Apr 2007, 22:46 (Ref:1890763)   #40
Purist
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
United States
Wichita, Kansas, USA
Posts: 5,892
Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!
A few things have to happen for ALMS to be able to reasonably come back in line with ACO regulations, at least for the most part.

Obviously, the diesel/petrol equivalency MUST be corrected. This would hopefully encourage more LMP1 entries. With an appreciable LMP1 category, you could rein in LMP2 a bit, and still actually have a race at the front of the field.

Not to dig up any unpleasantness, but one other thing that should happen is pssible GT1 entries should be assured that IMSA will work to ease restrictions to allow them to compete with the Corvettes, while making it clear to P&M that the Vettes will not be hobbled in the process. And I wouldn't mind a few exceptions being made to allow the Saleen, Mosler, and Maserati to run in GT1, at least over here.
Purist is offline  
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain.
Quote
Old 13 Apr 2007, 22:55 (Ref:1890768)   #41
Purist
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
United States
Wichita, Kansas, USA
Posts: 5,892
Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!
I forgot to include this in the last post.

I really do enjoy the concept of have prototypes running close that run to different weights/horsepowers. The Lotus strategy definitely appeals to me. I don't think there were so many complaints about class structure when 2-litre Porsches (907, 910), 4-litre Ferraris (330 P3/4), and 7-litre Fords (GT40 MkII(B), Mk IV) could all finish in the top five overall. Do people have a problem with this sort of thing now? If so, it's kind of sad, imo anyway.

Finally, Bob, if you feel that way, what is your solution, because something NEEDS to happen to correct this current state of affairs?

Last edited by Purist; 13 Apr 2007 at 22:57.
Purist is offline  
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain.
Quote
Old 13 Apr 2007, 23:09 (Ref:1890773)   #42
Bob Riebe
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location:
Minnesota
Posts: 2,351
Bob Riebe User has been fined for unsportsmanlike behaviour!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purist
I forgot to include this in the last post.

I really do enjoy the concept of have prototypes running close that run to different weights/horsepowers. The Lotus strategy definitely appeals to me. I don't think there were so many complaints about class structure when 2-litre Porsches (907, 910), 4-litre Ferraris (330 P3/4), and 7-litre Fords (GT40 MkII(B), Mk IV) could all finish in the top five overall. Do people have a problem with this sort of thing now? If so, it's kind of sad, imo anyway.

Finally, Bob, if you feel that way, what is your solution, because something NEEDS to happen to correct this current state of affairs?
The solutions is obvious; what was the rules structure that allowed the the cars you mentioned above to perform as they did?

IT was NOT the dictatorial malaise that tells team owners, and worse yet, car builders how to do their job. that exists now.

Write rules in the form of the previous style, the mid-nineties--we are god--attitude is a dismal failure.

Bob
Bob Riebe is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Apr 2007, 23:32 (Ref:1890780)   #43
Félix
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
MagnetON
Québec
Posts: 785
Félix should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridFélix should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
What you guys seem to forget with your proposals is a team like Pescarolo. Where do they run? Certainly not LMP2, especially if those struggle against GTs and are mandated to run a boxy chassis to move away from the F1 look some don't like.

If LMP1 is for manufacturers, they don't belong there unless somebody gives them an engine... Peugeot didn't even do that with a team that was an ex-partner and that was the closest to Audi in the last years. And just because you edict rules that drive away anybody but manufacturers in LMP1 doesn't mean manufacturers will come in numbers to play and be part of the losers against one winning manufacturer. And finally, I'm not too sure either about LMP1s with boxy chassis that don't make them look like "single-seaters with fenders" and a closed cockpit that will always look wrong no matter how you write the rules. Think Tampolli SR2 (or is it too sculpted around the front wheels?) with a jetplane canopy; sexy... and so streetcar'ish!
Félix is offline  
Quote
Old 14 Apr 2007, 04:25 (Ref:1890836)   #44
FLGTFAN
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
United States
Naples, Florida
Posts: 338
FLGTFAN has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
I find it ridiculous at this point that anybody should wait until the "diesel equivalency" is addressed by the ACO. Instead of being pleased that a P2 Porsche/Acura can even run with a P1 Audi, people complain about "reigning in" P2. Good grief.

The prototype race at Le Mans this year will be boring, no matter what happens with Peugeot. Sad, but true.
FLGTFAN is offline  
Quote
Old 14 Apr 2007, 10:54 (Ref:1890957)   #45
AU N EGL
Veteran
 
AU N EGL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
United States
Raleigh, North Carolina
Posts: 4,418
AU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by FLGTFAN
The prototype race at Le Mans this year will be boring, no matter what happens with Peugeot. Sad, but true.
I agree. Especially with out the P2 Porsches.
AU N EGL is offline  
__________________
"When the fear of death out weighs the thrill of speed, brake." LG
Quote
Old 14 Apr 2007, 11:51 (Ref:1890992)   #46
vorsprung
Veteran
 
vorsprung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location:
Finland
Posts: 530
vorsprung should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by AU N EGL
I agree. Especially with out the P2 Porsches.
Yeah, watching them run around in tenth place for three hours before starting to break would be soo interesting
vorsprung is offline  
Quote
Old 14 Apr 2007, 12:33 (Ref:1891022)   #47
SebringMG
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
United Kingdom
Posts: 613
SebringMG should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Yeah do not think a P2 Porsche can be considered reliable enough to last for 24 hours!!! I suspect this is why none have been bought for the LMS ?
SebringMG is offline  
Quote
Old 14 Apr 2007, 13:53 (Ref:1891090)   #48
sportscanyltics
Rookie
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 52
sportscanyltics has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by AU N EGL
Penske IS A priveteer team, not a factory team.
Penske are absolutely not privateers; they are the factory team for PMNA and cannot collect from the Privateer Points Fund.

Last edited by sportscanyltics; 14 Apr 2007 at 14:00.
sportscanyltics is offline  
Quote
Old 14 Apr 2007, 13:59 (Ref:1891094)   #49
sportscanyltics
Rookie
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 52
sportscanyltics has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Félix
What you guys seem to forget with your proposals is a team like Pescarolo. Where do they run? Certainly not LMP2, especially if those struggle against GTs and are mandated to run a boxy chassis to move away from the F1 look some don't like.

If LMP1 is for manufacturers, they don't belong there unless somebody gives them an engine... Peugeot didn't even do that with a team that was an ex-partner and that was the closest to Audi in the last years. And just because you edict rules that drive away anybody but manufacturers in LMP1 doesn't mean manufacturers will come in numbers to play and be part of the losers against one winning manufacturer. And finally, I'm not too sure either about LMP1s with boxy chassis that don't make them look like "single-seaters with fenders" and a closed cockpit that will always look wrong no matter how you write the rules. Think Tampolli SR2 (or is it too sculpted around the front wheels?) with a jetplane canopy; sexy... and so streetcar'ish!
Pescarolo, Dyson, Creation, and even a team like Autocon can all run in LMP1 if they choose to do so. The LMP1/LMP2 rules announcement clearly stated as such. Remember, intent is not mutually exclusive and a successful privateer has every opportunity to challenge the factory-backed teams in LMP1.
sportscanyltics is offline  
Quote
Old 14 Apr 2007, 14:45 (Ref:1891111)   #50
dj choc ice
Veteran
 
dj choc ice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
United Kingdom
Liverpool
Posts: 1,936
dj choc ice should be qualifying in the top 10 on the griddj choc ice should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
erm pescarolo are already in LMP1 as are creation as well, dyson were in LMP1 last year but choose the wrong engine package and fell way short of the mark.
dj choc ice is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Coupes from 2010 isynge Sportscar & GT Racing 427 20 Aug 2008 19:54
LMP Coupes ss_collins Sportscar & GT Racing 18 11 Mar 2007 22:22
Sort of off topic but sort of not.. ECW Dan Selby Formula One 3 21 Feb 2006 13:54
Coupes in the DTM Mopar Touring Car Racing 4 4 Dec 2003 11:04


All times are GMT. The time now is 15:34.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.