Formula BMW UK

[runshaw]

Or is there a proposed FF2000 series for the future? I know Zetec is becoming Sigma Duratec with a 1600 engine next year, so yes you're right it could be the future, sorry forgot it was becoming 1600 again.

[Ian Sowman]

Because FF Zetec doesn't exist at the end of the year I would guess, and it does revert to a 1600cc (Duratec) engine. And having said that, FF1600 Kent is a perfectly good first step into cars.

FF2000... well, there is the Pre 1983 series but I guess that isn't what Chas meant. Possibly a re-invention of FF2000 over here, but that won't happen as long as Renault exists.

[Mackmot]

FF2000 has been going strong for ages in the US and the cars look awesome. We run one in Monoposto and its a great car just a Van Diemen 99 with wings and wider tyres. Its a bit too much grip for an entry level car but you could easily make it with inefficient wings and harder tyres.

[No 4]

Originally Posted by ukracing

Cant have Renault / BMW & Ford in different levels all are starter formula. All require the same licence level to enter. Formula Renault is seen as a sideways more than a step up u will find drivers will either do FR of BMW no ones does Ford now unless they have no money and then they will move to F3.

Don't make me laugh, you're not seriously suggesting that kids straight out of karting should view Formula Renault as their starter series! At best they'll end up causing tens of thousands of damage and at worst killing someone.

The starter series (for good reason, they're slower) are Formula Ford Zetec or FBMW (I would choose FF as you learn more) and then either FR or F3, depending on whether you want to go into a closed or open series - not just my opinion, as specified by the MSA.

[Kicking-back]

Many drivers do go straight from karting to F Renault.

In Italy many used to go straight from karting to F3.

And Gabriele Tarquini even went straight from karting to F3000.

[bella]

i can think of a couple who have done karting to renault with no ill effects at all....

[Kicking-back]

Mr Hamilton for one

[rdjones]

I wasn't at all impressed with FBMW last year, but this year they have got there act together and there has been some really good close racing.

[flor]

i think here in germany most people go Karting > FBMW or Renault > F3

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by ukracing

Cant have Renault / BMW & Ford in different levels all are starter formula.

You keep saying that and it's not true. FFord and FBMW are the starter level, Renault is a step up.

[ukracing]

Mate seriously shall I name thousands that have gone from Karting to Renault, remember a time were BMW was about and Ford was dieing! Di Resta, Hamilton, Hall, Hanley, Stokenfelt, Jakes, McIntosh, Buurman, Webber, Welsh, the list is endless and thats mostly this year! Most of the BMW grid this year are second year students. Relly runshaw Ford is dead its sad when u see only 6 take the start and only get bolsterd when doing GP circuits. Formula Ford had its day unforntatly never keep up with the more sponsor impressive and maufacture backed modern day and has died it will ever be a clubbie championship.

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by ukracing

Mate seriously shall I name thousands that have gone from Karting to Renault, remember a time were BMW was about and Ford was dieing! Di Resta, Hamilton, Hall, Hanley, Stokenfelt, Jakes, McIntosh, Buurman, Webber, Welsh, the list is endless and thats mostly this year! Most of the BMW grid this year are second year students. Relly runshaw Ford is dead its sad when u see only 6 take the start and only get bolsterd when doing GP circuits. Formula Ford had its day unforntatly never keep up with the more sponsor impressive and maufacture backed modern day and has died it will ever be a clubbie championship.

If that list of drivers was meant to be drivers who have gone from karting to Renault- McIntosh started in USFF, Webber started in FF Zetec, Hall started in FF Zetec, Storkenfeldt started in FF Zetec.

Yes I know what you are saying ukracing- FBMW and Renault are thriving whilst FF is struggling for grid numbers, everyone knows that- but I wasn't making that point. (Also there hasn't been a grid of 6 cars this year in Formula Ford). If you READ my posts, I am not commenting on the popularity of the 3 series, I was merely saying FF Zetec is good for training!! And no- please don't name thousands who have gone from karting to Renault.

Remember my last post was saying that FF and FBMW are on the same level, FRenault is a step up, so that post of yours relates to nothing I have said!! Plus FF may not be dead yet, next year it is getting revamped with a newer lighter Sigma Duratec 1600 engine, so those changes may save it.

[No 4]

Well said Runshaw, there's too many people on here who make comments without checking the facts first.

Whether people want to hear this or not (and I repeat for the third time), a couple of years back the MSA designated an open and closed series, banded hierachy through which drivers could progress to F1. Formula Ford and FBMW were listed in band 1, and Formula Renault and F3 in band 2. Of course there are always exceptions in terms of frivers not following this progression exactly. However, I agree with you Runshaw, namely that drivers learn more in FF and therefore that's where they should start.

That said, why is Formula Ford currently struggling by contrast to FBMW? Simple, BMW are pouring more money into their series. Marketing bucks always count.

[No 4]

frivers = drivers, just checking everyone (including me!!) is awake.

[foreversideways]

Originally Posted by ukracing

Mate seriously shall I name thousands that have gone from Karting to Renault, remember a time were BMW was about and Ford was dieing! Di Resta, Hamilton, Hall, Hanley, Stokenfelt, Jakes, McIntosh, Buurman, Webber, Welsh, the list is endless and thats mostly this year! Most of the BMW grid this year are second year students. Relly runshaw Ford is dead its sad when u see only 6 take the start and only get bolsterd when doing GP circuits. Formula Ford had its day unforntatly never keep up with the more sponsor impressive and maufacture backed modern day and has died it will ever be a clubbie championship.

Where were you when Webber won the Formula Ford Festival in 1996 or was third in 1995. Even before that he was racing Formula Ford in Aus. Famous phrase "put brain into gear before mouth" or in this case keyboard.

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by No 4

Well said Runshaw, there's too many people on here who make comments without checking the facts first.

Whether people want to hear this or not (and I repeat for the third time), a couple of years back the MSA designated an open and closed series, banded hierachy through which drivers could progress to F1. Formula Ford and FBMW were listed in band 1, and Formula Renault and F3 in band 2.

Thanks No 4. Now ukracing, you can't really continue to argue that BMW, Ford and Renault are on the same level when No 4 has pointed out again that the MSA put FRenault in band 2, above FBMW and FF. Although it is true that drivers inevitably follow different paths up the racing ladder, hence some do start in FRenault, but that doesn't mean it is on the same level as FF/BMW. There are actually many drivers who start in Formulas that are not at all considered the 'first step' like Piquet Jr, he started in F3 at 16 years old!

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by foreversideways

Where were you when Webber won the Formula Ford Festival in 1996 or was third in 1995. Even before that he was racing Formula Ford in Aus. Famous phrase "put brain into gear before mouth" or in this case keyboard.

Yes good advice! Although- I actually think he meant Josh Weber- all the same anyway because he raced in Southern Formula Ford Zetec in 2003, before FRenault.

[No 4]

If I were the manager of Piquet, I'd consider myself lucky that I wasn't being sued for putting him at risk. I mean how stupid is putting a 16 year old in an F3 car first time out.

Doing this sort of thing is all part of the current obsession with getting drivers through to F1 at an ever younger age. The reality is that young drivers can have all the talent in the world, but that doesn't mean their emotional maturity is such that they're ready to drive in top-class motorsport.

Would Fergusson buy a 16 year old and put him straight in the Man U first team? I don't think so!

[JJ Jet Plane]

No 4: I think that's a bit strong regarding Piquet. He'd already done absolutely thousands of test miles in the F3 car before his 16th birthday and was racing against relatively low-level opposition in the South American championship through late 2001 and the whole of 2002. The top speed of an F3 car is only about 15mph faster than a Formula BMW achieves on the quick bit at Thruxton, and you could arguably say the F3 is safer because of the masses of downforce.

Also, from the mid 80s through to the early 90s nearly every quick young Italian went straight from karting to Italian F3 – which was mega competitive in those days – and then spent three or four years in F3 before moving up to F3000. No-one ever regarded it as stupid, it was just the way things were done.

[No 4]

Ok, I'll accept a bit strong!! However, I still think there is too much onus on drivers progressing too quickly to F1. As I said, in most other major sports, generally speaking, talented young people are held back for their own protection, so that their ability to deal with psychological pressure has time to develop.

[JJ Jet Plane]

Totally agree No 4. There are just too many drivers whose careers are rushed, then they fail in F3 aged 19 or 20. They sit around moaning for a couple of years that they haven't got any money, doing nothing about it other than going to the gym and doing a bit of track instructing while their rubbish 'managers' fail to keep them racing. And then they disappear from the scene.

A far cry from the days when people like Mansell, Daly, Kennedy, South, Warwick, Needell, Flux etc used to move heaven and earth to keep themselves racing by selling their house or working in mines.

I accept that the sport is more professional these days and drivers are more carefully 'groomed', but I still think a driver should have at least two years in Formula BMW/Ford/Renault or whatever and then spend two years doing a proper job in Formula 3 before moving up. Some of these guys racing internationally at the age of 19 or 20 have got no life experience and that must surely count against them when the going gets tough.

[foreversideways]

Originally Posted by JJ Jet Plane

A far cry from the days when people like Mansell, Daly, Kennedy, South, Warwick, Needell, Flux etc used to move heaven and earth to keep themselves racing by selling their house or working in mines.

The subtle difference is that the above were men not kids. They had lives outside motorsort and came up through the ranks whilst earning a living to support themselves. They had to work hard and take risks to get the breaks. Mansell is a great example of this, he sold his house for 4 Formula 3 races. People wonder why Kimi R is so poor during interviews. There is no mystery to this. His mental age is obviously much less than his physical age and he has no other life experiences , he has been pounding round in some vehicle or other since he was a little boy. Anyway we don't need any more aspiring F1 drivers, there are enough already.

[No 4]

If we all agree 'life experience' is important, why then does the sport seem fixated with youth? Surely if drivers had to wait an extra 2 or 3 years before they got into an F1 car, it would give them time to mature personality wise, therefore making them better equipt to handle their 'big opportunity' when it came along?

[strider]

Originally Posted by No 4

If I were the manager of Piquet, I'd consider myself lucky that I wasn't being sued for putting him at risk. I mean how stupid is putting a 16 year old in an F3 car first time out.!

Disregarding Piquet, whose quite well-known father is his manager, Alvaro Parente, who is odds-on favourite to win BF3 this year, started in Spanish F3 at 16 or 17, had one year in Euro F3, then two years (of which this is the second) with Carlin Motorsport. He's now 20, has learnt a huge amount and is cuurently testing for Portugal in A1GP at Paul Ricard. Anything wrong with that?

Would Fergusson buy a 16 year old and put him straight in the Man U first team? I don't think so!

You're not comparing like with like. The equivalent would be to put a 16 year old straight into F1.

[Murray Talker]

Trying to put boys, or girls, into F1 will ultimately run the risk of creating a bland, characterless product.

For me great racing drivers are like fine wines, they will mature and usually become much better with age. How and where drivers are tutored is the key to their longevity and character and this need not be rushed. Wisdom and character is earnt through lifes experiences.. the up's and the down's...

Bruno Senna will be interesting to observe. He is now 22 years old and definately wiser than the average. He has the speed and after a few more years in F3 will definately be a candidate for F1. I would expect his longer journey to maturity to be of benefit to him.

Bruno's team mate 'Speedy' Dan Clarke, aged 21, is a driver I am helping at the moment. Its clear to me that Dan develops through experience and is better for it. He was very immature when I first met him but through his racing and his experiences off track, business, charity and sport he is fast becoming a wiser individual. Dan like Bruno still has many things to learn and much wisdom to absorb but I do see a real character developing. I have not seen in recent times a more straightforward, straightalking British racing driver. Of the current crop he is probably the only one that doesn't come from a well healed background. His ruthlessness on track is criticised at times but ultimately his yorkshire upbringing racing karts from the age of eight with no money has produced a racer in the old style. He will continue to mature and when he is fully matured I hope he get his chance to show his character at the top level.

Chas Cole