Force India 2012 - Hulkenberg in, Sutil out

[maximus]

Originally Posted by TF110

Sutil drove just as well as DiResta and scored more points than him (which is the main goal). Hulkenburg is going to do so much better? Watch him be the same pace as Paul, and no better than what they got rid of.

Not quite sure what your point is here as DiResta was in his first season and is still improving! If the pair of them are the same speed I reckon that wouldn't be a bad thing at all.

Sutil is a good driver but I think he was becoming stagnant at FI, he needed to move on. It is a shame though that he hasn't secured a drive elsewhere.

[MJones94]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

Errr.....just out of interest, how to you come to that conclusion?

Exactly! F-I had surpassed Lotus Renault in terms of pace by Monza and matched the Mercs a couple of times towards the end of the year.

[TF110]

So F-I was ranked 6th, but then they were 5th fastest by end of season. Which is what I said. So people claiming they made strides need to look again. They challenged Mercedes only in straight line. And mostly it was by Renault's failing forward exhaust that F-I was able to be faster than them. What's with the F-I love now? I never said they were a bad team, but they'll have a tough time being 5th fastest this season. You're forgetting Lotus (renault) has Kimi now, Williams won't be nearly as bad, Sauber might make a move forward, as could Caterham and Toro Rosso. So how do you see them challenging manufacturer's when they could barley lift themselves from the midfield until late in the season? And how was Sutil 'stagnant in F1'? How about Barrichello? How about Trulli? There's stagnant IMO.

[MJones94]

The midfield will certainly be very interesting to watch in 2012. Renault really paid for their exhaust layout but I'm sure they will return stronger as a result. I'm confident that Williams will be much stronger because of the banning of OTBD, you only have to look at their performance in qualifying at Silverstone to notice their pace when there was a level playing field. I think that Caterham should finally be able to at least challenge for a few points what with the large amount of money injected by the 10th place.

[maximus]

Originally Posted by TF110

And how was Sutil 'stagnant in F1'? How about Barrichello? How about Trulli? There's stagnant IMO.

At Force India not F1!

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by TF110

How about Barrichello? How about Trulli? There's stagnant IMO.

Do either of these 2 deserve a seat in F1 too??

Sutil is a strange one. I've never really thought he deserved his ride, until he came under threat this season and upped his game. Makes me wonder why he didn't do it before? But if i was a team boss a wouldn't want to emply someone i percieved as not trying.

[Louis Agilais]

very good news indeed!

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Do either of these 2 deserve a seat in F1 too??

Sutil is a strange one. I've never really thought he deserved his ride, until he came under threat this season and upped his game. Makes me wonder why he didn't do it before? But if i was a team boss a wouldn't want to emply someone i percieved as not trying.

Have you paid attention to him at all, or just since he was in the hot seat? He's put in drives beyond his car in years prior. 08 I think it was he had a 4th place going for him at Monaco, but Kimi crashed him out. F-I has never had a winning car, so what do you expect from them? It's going to be the same this season, under achieving drives thatre down to the car.

[chillibowl]

just sayin, but i would have expected him to have outperformed Fisi at the 2009 Belgium GP.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by TF110

Have you paid attention to him at all, or just since he was in the hot seat? He's put in drives beyond his car in years prior. 08 I think it was he had a 4th place going for him at Monaco, but Kimi crashed him out. F-I has never had a winning car, so what do you expect from them? It's going to be the same this season, under achieving drives thatre down to the car.

Your suggestion of one or two good results doesn't exactly support your case that Sutil is anything special..

If he was really good the top teams would bender over backwards to sign him up or make him 3rd driver until a race drive came up in 2013.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Your suggestion of one or two good results doesn't exactly support your case that Sutil is anything special..

If he was really good the top teams would bender over backwards to sign him up or make him 3rd driver until a race drive came up in 2013.

Exactly.

[safc_fan89]

It's interesting reading this thread, because I don't think di Resta is as good as everyone else thinks. I just didn't see anything throughout the season that suggested he'd be any better than the other average drivers that are in F1. You look at the impressions made by the likes of Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Kubica and so on in their debut seasons and to me, it doesn't compare at all.

If you keep di Resta, which I would because he should do better in his second season (and not be involved in so many collisions) then really you should also be keeping the driver who did a better job over the course of the season. Seems a bit counter-intuitive to me. They might end up losing out at the early part of this next season as well because Hulkenberg hasn't raced for a season. I think Hulkenberg certainly deserves another shot at F1 because he was given the boot just as his performances were starting to pick up, but it shouldn't have been at Force India.

[Marbot]

I didn't see anything in Hulkenburg during his time at Williams that would suggest that Williams get rid of Barrichello instead of him. Barrichello scored about twice the number of points that Hulkenburg did, and generally made him look to be nothing at all special.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Di Resta also makes Hulkenburg look to be like nothing at all special.

I also wouldn't be at all surprised if Sutil turns up at Williams in place of Barrichello. But that's not an easy one for Williams to figure out. They have a new technical team and they'll want a driver that understands the technicalities of what they are trying to achieve. Not many are better than Barrichello at that. And he's still quick.

[spider]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

It's interesting reading this thread, because I don't think di Resta is as good as everyone else thinks. I just didn't see anything throughout the season that suggested he'd be any better than the other average drivers that are in F1. You look at the impressions made by the likes of Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Kubica and so on in their debut seasons and to me, it doesn't compare at all.

If you keep di Resta, which I would because he should do better in his second season (and not be involved in so many collisions) then really you should also be keeping the driver who did a better job over the course of the season. Seems a bit counter-intuitive to me. They might end up losing out at the early part of this next season as well because Hulkenberg hasn't raced for a season. I think Hulkenberg certainly deserves another shot at F1 because he was given the boot just as his performances were starting to pick up, but it shouldn't have been at Force India.

Good points.

I'm unsure on how great Di Resta really is, he's clearly very very competent but a potential great, hmm? Yes, I know what he did against Seb in F3, but that was a while ago now, and Seb's clearly pushed on a lot!

He had some high peaks though, and you could hear the other drivers were impressed with him - Button mentioned this several times.

But us Brits are a little too overly enthusiastic at times towards our own. If Paul had been Italian, for example, would we be saying he was as impressive?

But, with the 3rd driver getting Friday seat-time, unlike the other teams, obviously that meant less running for one of the drivers over the weekend - making some of the back-to-backs a little harder to judge.

It's clear Paul's very good, who raced very intelligently, if not spectacularly - but we have to wait until next year, up against another potentially great driver, to see where he really sits. If one overshadows the other clearly this season, that could really ruin the loser's career, in-turn catapulting the others'.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Marbot

They have a new technical team and they'll want a driver that understands the technicalities of what they are trying to achieve. Not many are better than Barrichello at that. And he's still quick.

That's not quite how I saw it... it seemed to me that once Maldonado got used to F1, he took Rubens set up skills and advice to blow the old stager away, at least in a lot of qualy sessions and if PM had a car to last over a race distance the evidence suggests he would've done the same there as well.

With basic pace already aquired, I wonder how quick PM could be once he works an F1 car out for himself!

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chunterer

With basic pace already aquired, I wonder how quick PM could be once he works an F1 car out for himself!

Maldonado is quick, and he's shown that on many occasions. Monaco would have seen him get a fine result, had it not been for a certain incident that occurred.

Williams have stated many times that Maldonado isn't in the team just because he has sponsorship.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I didn't see anything in Hulkenburg during his time at Williams that would suggest that Williams get rid of Barrichello instead of him. Barrichello scored about twice the number of points that Hulkenburg did, and generally made him look to be nothing at all special.

do you mean to say that you saw nothing out of hulk in 2010 that would have indicated to you that he could not have scored more than 4 points in a Williams in 2011?

obviously they produced a pants car but the team above them scored 36 more points than they did on what has to be a smaller budget.

to put it another way, if you had 2011 to do over again (and since we have the benefit of hindsight here) are you as of today still saying that they made the right choice of Barri over Hulk?

after the terrible year they had im not sure how you can look back on that call with confidence and say it was the right choice.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

do you mean to say that you saw nothing out of hulk in 2010 that would have indicated to you that he could not have scored more than 4 points in a Williams in 2011?

obviously they produced a pants car but the team above them scored 36 more points than they did on what has to be a smaller budget.

to put it another way, if you had 2011 to do over again (and since we have the benefit of hindsight here) are you as of today still saying that they made the right choice of Barri over Hulk?

after the terrible year they had im not sure how you can look back on that call with confidence and say it was the right choice.

They had a very bad car. Barrichello didn't suddenly get slower.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Marbot

They had a very bad car. Barrichello didn't suddenly get slower.

no just gradually getting slower.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

no just gradually getting slower.

Even that is debatable.

[chillibowl]

im not sure how its debatable unless you think he is getting faster with age. anyways agree to disagree.

back to the subject at hand Hulk deserves the chance and imo its not a huge chance to take. STR are running 2 rookies and Williams are running a pay driver and the aging RB and Sauber are running two drivers depending on who you ask elicit similar questions to FI drivers line up...talent level, experience, and consistency.

they are hopefully safe from those below and within striking distance of those above with crafty 1 stop strategies. all things being equal i like that they are taking a chance on youth.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Your suggestion of one or two good results doesn't exactly support your case that Sutil is anything special..

If he was really good the top teams would bender over backwards to sign him up or make him 3rd driver until a race drive came up in 2013.

When did I say he was 'special'? Never. I said he isn't any slower than DiResta or Hulkenburg. But dropping him is pretty funny for them when you consider the alternatives you put in the car aren't going to run any better. Maybe if you go back and re-read my comments you'll understand that's what I'm getting at. If he was in a top team I'd say he'd perform as well as at least Massa or Webber. We'll see this year. But then again, we won't. Because the car might be a dog or a blessing. So either DiResta and Hulk will be near the midfield or they'll be something 'special', which is your suggestion of what I think about Sutil.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by TF110

If he was in a top team I'd say he'd perform as well as at least Massa or Webber. We'll see this year. But then again, we won't. Because the car might be a dog or a blessing. So either DiResta and Hulk will be near the midfield or they'll be something 'special', which is your suggestion of what I think about Sutil.

Regardless of how I 'read' your posts concerning special or not, if like you suggest that he went to a top team and he did perform at Massa or Webber's level that wouldn't really be good enough would it?

As you rightly point out, those jobs already are filled by people you are saying you think are at Sutil's level.

Which still isn't really good enough for a top team to bother with.

[TF110]

We never know until he gets that top team drive. Kimi needed a Mac to get wins, Alonso a Renault, Button a Brawn/Mac... where were they in mediocre teams? Not near the front. If Sutil's level is even at Webber's or Massa's, it's enough for race wins as those two have demonstrated. If you put a midfielder in the RB7 they'd be a top 5 contender. I feel at least.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by TF110

We never know until he gets that top team drive. Kimi needed a Mac to get wins, Alonso a Renault, Button a Brawn/Mac... where were they in mediocre teams? Not near the front.

All three of them had been pretty mega in the lower formulas and made immediate impacts in their debut F1 seasons regardless of the team they were with, none of which were race winning cars. Button is perhaps the odd one out as he got stuck in limbo for years and to be fair only F1 insiders didn't seem to write him off, but he persevered and his career came back to him.

Sutil has never made anywhere near the same impact as these guys.

You are right to a degree, most of the F1 field could go quickly in something like the Red Bull and would be capable of winning races, but only a handful of them have the ability to be on it all of the time and win titles. Sutil has never shown that he is capable of that.