Nissan LMP1 Discussion

[MagVanisher]

For starters, Nissan can use last year's GT500 engine or rebadge a 2013 Renault engine for LMP1.

[gwyllion]

Or they build a 3.0 V6 turbo by sticking together two ZEOD 3 cylinders?

The monocoque of ZEOD already complies with the LMP1 regulations, so that can be used as a starting point.

[nkoske]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The monocoque of ZEOD already complies with the LMP1 regulations, so that can be used as a starting point.

...and if they do that it's shows they're not taking LMP1 seriously, IMO.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by nkoske

...and if they do that it's shows they're not taking LMP1 seriously, IMO.

But everything Nissan touches, including carbon fibre, turns to pure gold.

[GT6]

tell that to the owners of a nissan sunny

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by nkoske

...and if they do that it's shows they're not taking LMP1 seriously, IMO.

I doubt understand what would be wrong with the ZEOD monocoque, which already complies with the 2014 LMP1 regulations



[img][/img]

source: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/cars/nissan-zeod-rc/

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I doubt understand what would be wrong with the ZEOD monocoque, which already complies with the 2014 LMP1 regulations



[img][/img]

source: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/cars/nissan-zeod-rc/

Isn't that front structure a bit long?

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Or they build a 3.0 V6 turbo by sticking together two ZEOD 3 cylinders?

I thought this was the plan all along? After reading RCE's feature, the headline figures (40kg without turbo/exhaust, ~380+hp, ~360lb/ft) are almost too good to be true.

[Richard T]

Front definitely to big and no undercut. Although the greenhouse itself might be a good starting point.

Audi monocoque:

[Beetle]

Looking at the LMP1 grid this year, can't help but be excited for the foreseeable future. A little out of left field but any chance we could see Kobayashi doing the Nissan program at some point if F1 doesn't work out? He's Japanese and Toyota is currently full so perhaps he'd like to join in the fun?

I'm expecting Krumm, Motoyama, Ordonez, Lancaster, Reip, Mardenborough, Kimber-Smith, Shulzhitskiy, John Martin, Turvey, and Dolby all battling for those six spots on the team (assuming they will have 2 cars). I'd like to see the paint scheme in white and blue as well...

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by nkoske

...and if they do that it's shows they're not taking LMP1 seriously, IMO.

Please explain how using a P1 2014 compliant tub shows that a team is not taking seriously P1 entry? No one can stop you from openly expressing you disliking for a brand or a specific car a brand produced, but if you want to be taken seriously you have to pick your battles and when hitting, you have to hit with something that makes sense.

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by J Jay

I thought this was the plan all along? After reading RCE's feature, the headline figures (40kg without turbo/exhaust, ~380+hp, ~360lb/ft) are almost too good to be true.

The engine is 40 kg because is not stressed element, therefore it could be made very light. Once you make it part of the structure and combine the two into a single block, there is no difference between two 1,5L I-3s and one 3L V-6.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deltawing

The engine is 40 kg because is not stressed element, therefore it could be made very light. Once you make it part of the structure and combine the two into a single block, there is no difference between two 1,5L I-3s and one 3L V-6.

I believe it would come to be something arpund 100-130kg with turbo equipment added if they choose that route (zeod x2). Probably close to Toyota's weight if its a smaller capacity engine but added turbo. Maybe they go the SuperGT route with the turbo 4.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by deltawing

The engine is 40 kg because is not stressed element, therefore it could be made very light. Once you make it part of the structure and combine the two into a single block, there is no difference between two 1,5L I-3s and one 3L V-6.

That's the funny thing about the Holy Grail of stressed engines.

If you need a V-8 (or maybe V-6), great! You can save some weight that way. But if you want to make your engine really small, you save more weight by using a space frame to hold the back of the car together (like various motorcycle engined hill-climbers), and the engine can be made lighter, and, you also get the option you can plug more than one kind of engine into it!

Colin Chapman's innovation was a great innovation for its time, but fortunately, IC engine technology has progressed and now that can be a rather old fashioned way to do things.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by Beetle

Looking at the LMP1 grid this year, can't help but be excited for the foreseeable future. A little out of left field but any chance we could see Kobayashi doing the Nissan program at some point if F1 doesn't work out? He's Japanese and Toyota is currently full so perhaps he'd like to join in the fun?

I'm expecting Krumm, Motoyama, Ordonez, Lancaster, Reip, Mardenborough, Kimber-Smith, Shulzhitskiy, John Martin, Turvey, and Dolby all battling for those six spots on the team (assuming they will have 2 cars). I'd like to see the paint scheme in white and blue as well...

What would count against Kobayashi is that he's a Toyota driver. I know he isn't contracted to Toyota right now, but likely that to Nissan and the Japanese public he is a Toyota guy.

Nissan have their own guys, some of whom you've listed.

I'll go out on a limb (not a big limb imo) that Krumm, Motoyama and Ordonez are practically nailed on for LMP1 drives in a factory Nissan.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by deltawing

Please explain how using a P1 2014 compliant tub shows that a team is not taking seriously P1 entry?

2014 compliant yes but t's a tub designed for entirely different kind of chassis. Please explain how that wouldn't be a compromise.

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by deggis

2014 compliant yes but t's a tub designed for entirely different kind of chassis. Please explain how that wouldn't be a compromise.

Are you serious? ... I am going to pretend you did not write that, so maybe you get a chance to delete it before everyone sees it.

[Articus]

LOL

[Pandemonium]

Can anybody explain what his mistake is? I am no expert in engineering

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by Pandemonium

Can anybody explain what his mistake is? .....

They assume you make one tub and then you use it for several different car designs. So they look at the ZEOD tub and think Nissan is going to use the same exact tub in their future LMP1 program, so naturally the assumption is that such car (the new LMP1 car) is not going to be "serious" because it is going to have a tub from a ZEOD...or even worse, the P1 car is not going to comply to the rule book, because if you are using a ZEOD tub in a P1 car, there is no way that P1 car would be compliant and that means Nissan is working the system again, participating with cars that are outside the rules and we know where the story goes....

To put in a little bit more humorous context, judging the seriousness of a potential P1 program by looking at the ZEOD tub is like looking at the ZEOD rear wheels and go: "Well, they are using 15" rear wheels here, so it is very clear how serious they are about a P1 program next year!".....

But seriously now, there are teams who use existing tubs and build a new car around an old (existing tub). They do that to save money and/or time. But it is a big compromise, because you cannot design the car exactly like you want it/need it. However, you can just go get an existing tub from a vendor and you are done, saving time and money.

To give you an example that everyone knows about - the original, open cockpit DeltaWing form 2012. As everyone knows, it used and existing tub from (made for) a different car. I am sure they did not want to, it was not ideal, but perhaps it was cheap and fast and it was good for the purpose of the project - to have a car that works and proves to the world it is not going to flip at the first corner.

However, if money and time is not an issue (usually the case with larger teams), then a specific tub is made for the purpose of your project. And this is actually how you can see that Nissan was very serious about the ZEOD - they did not simply go and take any existing tub, but made a new and unique one, specifically to suit the uniqueness of the ZEOD's shape (who exactly made the tub and how much it was changed are perhaps separate topics and there is no point digging into that at this point). It is quite common on these pages to see posts accusing Nissan of doing a pure marketing stint with the ZEOD, but if you look at it from a different point of view, they did go the expensive route and made a proper tub, which I am sure was $$$, so people have to admit that there is some proper technical and financial dedication to this project...

If Nissan undertakes a P1 program next year, you can bet pretty much anything that they are not going to use the ZEOD tub. They are going to invest even more $$$ and build a completely new car that meets every single P1 rule and regulation, and that will come with a completely new tub, which will be specifically designed for that specific P1 car.

All the above is oversimplified and I can see how someone is going to pick on single lines and prove me incorrect, but I will live with that

[Mr Pink]

Originally Posted by deltawing

They assume you make one tub and then you use it for several different car designs. So they look at the ZEOD tub and think Nissan is going to use the same exact tub in their future LMP1 program, so naturally the assumption is that such car (the new LMP1 car) is not going to be "serious" because it is going to have a tub from a ZEOD...or even worse, the P1 car is not going to comply to the rule book, because if you are using a ZEOD tub in a P1 car, there is no way that P1 car would be compliant and that means Nissan is working the system again, participating with cars that are outside the rules and we know where the story goes....

To put in a little bit more humorous context, judging the seriousness of a potential P1 program by looking at the ZEOD tub is like looking at the ZEOD rear wheels and go: "Well, they are using 15" rear wheels here, so it is very clear how serious they are about a P1 program next year!".....

But seriously now, there are teams who use existing tubs and build a new car around an old (existing tub). They do that to save money and/or time. But it is a big compromise, because you cannot design the car exactly like you want it/need it. However, you can just go get an existing tub from a vendor and you are done, saving time and money.

To give you an example that everyone knows about - the original, open cockpit DeltaWing form 2012. As everyone knows, it used and existing tub from (made for) a different car. I am sure they did not want to, it was not ideal, but perhaps it was cheap and fast and it was good for the purpose of the project - to have a car that works and proves to the world it is not going to flip at the first corner.

However, if money and time is not an issue (usually the case with larger teams), then a specific tub is made for the purpose of your project. And this is actually how you can see that Nissan was very serious about the ZEOD - they did not simply go and take any existing tub, but made a new and unique one, specifically to suit the uniqueness of the ZEOD's shape (who exactly made the tub and how much it was changed are perhaps separate topics and there is no point digging into that at this point). It is quite common on these pages to see posts accusing Nissan of doing a pure marketing stint with the ZEOD, but if you look at it from a different point of view, they did go the expensive route and made a proper tub, which I am sure was $$$, so people have to admit that there is some proper technical and financial dedication to this project...

If Nissan undertakes a P1 program next year, you can bet pretty much anything that they are not going to use the ZEOD tub. They are going to invest even more $$$ and build a completely new car that meets every single P1 rule and regulation, and that will come with a completely new tub, which will be specifically designed for that specific P1 car.

All the above is oversimplified and I can see how someone is going to pick on single lines and prove me incorrect, but I will live with that

Not hating on Nissan (or you) but how is that an answer to what he wrote? The ZEOD tub is still designed for a car that is very different from P1's.

I seriously doubt a factory team like Nissan would consider it worth all the trouble, and probably performance loss, using it to save a bit of cash and if they do I agree that it would speak a bit about the level of their intentions.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by Mr Pink

Not hating on Nissan (or you) but how is that an answer to what he wrote? The ZEOD tub is still designed for a car that is very different from P1's.

I seriously doubt a factory team like Nissan would consider it worth all the trouble, and probably performance loss, using it to save a bit of cash and if they do I agree that it would speak a bit about the level of their intentions.

But if the ZEOD tub is a P1 tub then wouldn't it be ok for LMP1 and not ideal for the ZEOD?

It's 11pm and I've done 12 hours of exam revision today alone, so maybe my brain is burnt out and I'm misunderstanding what is what

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by Mr Pink

The ZEOD tub is still designed for a car that is very different from P1's......

EXACTLY!!!!!

The ZEOD tub is designed for the ZEOD and not for a P1 car - so how is THAT making a potential P1 program "less serious"? Where is the link between the ZEOD tub and a potential P1 car?

The ZEOD wheels are also designed for the ZEOD and NOT for a P1 car - how is that suggesting that a company is not serious about a future program with a completely different car?

[Mr Pink]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

But if the ZEOD tub is a P1 tub then wouldn't it be ok for LMP1 and not ideal for the ZEOD?

It's 11pm and I've done 12 hours of exam revision today alone, so maybe my brain is burnt out and I'm misunderstanding what is what

I'm no expert but as far as I know it i complys with P1 rules but is designed for the ZEOD, like Deltawing wrote: "And this is actually how you can see that Nissan was very serious about the ZEOD - they did not simply go and take any existing tub, but made a new and unique one, specifically to suit the uniqueness of the ZEOD's shape."

Which is why also I'm very confused why he's being so critical of the few who pointed out it might not be the best choice for a P1 project..

[Mr Pink]

Originally Posted by deltawing

EXACTLY!!!!!

The ZEOD tub is designed for the ZEOD and not for a P1 car - so how is THAT making a potential P1 program "less serious"? Where is the link between the ZEOD tub and a potential P1 car?

The ZEOD wheels are also designed for the ZEOD and NOT for a P1 car - how is that suggesting that a company is not serious about a future program with a completely different car?

He was talking about IF they would use the same tub for a prospective P1 car, it would say something about how serious they are with the P1 project. If I haven't misunderstood the whole thing..