[Team] Mercedes: Will they ever dominate again?

[S griffin]

First time that both cars have finished out of the points since 2012 Austin. I do think they are starting to show signs of vulnerability

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by E.B

Thought crossed my mind too.... But then he did beat Lewis today.

If that's all he has to celebrate today, I don't think the party will last very long.....

[S griffin]

Considering Bottas luck the past two weeks, he’ll probably take whatever he can get

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I can't imagine any other driver in a top team accepting a strategy that disadvantages them in favour of their teammate particularly at a track VB had usually excelled at.

it is hard to imagine...which may also indicate that VB is under the impression that the possibility of a Merc contract next year is still on the table? rather, why else would he still be playing the team game?

though, that hope should probably be dashed somewhat as he also didnt bring in any points, something that he should have been able to do even starting a race in 10th while driving a Merc.

will be interesting to see how Merc respond now that they are even further behind in the constructors.

coming into Baku they were 1 point (i believe) behind RB and they opted to bring fresh engines and sacrifice one drivers quali session/start position...what will they do now that they are 26 pts down?

perhaps im being overly dramatic, but this is a team that might not know how to play from behind and already looking like they are prepared to cannibalize themselves/future performance/team stability in their pursuit of an 8th drivers title for LH.

obviously lots of races left and at tracks which may suit them more, but this is also uncharted territory for them. so i guess if i have one take away, it is that pursuing 1-2 race finishes and both season titles is no longer part of their plan and that is in and of itself a major shift in their thinking right?

[S griffin]

It seems Max and Lewis battle for the wins has got to Bottas and he’s not producing his best this year, apart from maybe Monaco

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It seems Max and Lewis battle for the wins has got to Bottas and he’s not producing his best this year, apart from maybe Monaco

But I think it's been said that he was effectively on a sub-optimal strategy last weekend?

His performance was quite restricted by the big wing... which I guess has the unfortunate by-product of reducing the merc power advantage down the straight. Add this to the continual theme that it is a car that doesn't like following other cars. Didn't leave him much room for manouvre.

That doesn't answer why he was not more aggressive at the start or the restart knowing that would have been his best opportunities to make up ground?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chunterer

But I think it's been said that he was effectively on a sub-optimal strategy last weekend?

I don't think they planned for it to be sub-optimal, but was a driver choice that unfortunately went the wrong way.

Talking about giving Hamilton a tow:
"So we have a rule at the beginning of the season," Wolff explained to Sky Sports F1 when asked about the apparent tow.

"Any driver can decide whether he wants to go first or second, this weekend this was Lewis' call. And he decided to go second. Nothing surprising."

And in terms of wing choice:
"We debated it and we have a lower downforce configuration and the higher one. Valtteri opted for the higher downforce configuration and Lewis for the lower but there's not a lot in it."

Toto has also admitted that they are coming up short on tight, street tracks:
"In Monaco and here we didn't have a car that was competitive, full stop," Wolff told Sky F1. "We lose all the time in the twisty old town, and this is what happened in Monaco."
"You could see in the middle sector, we were really close, we were quicker on the straight - but the middle sector was just a total shocker."

[Aysedasi]

So, rather than being forced to use a less than optimal configuration (as it turned out) as seems to have been suggested previously, Valtteri actually chose high downforce....?

[chillibowl]

Well now that they are behind, we will find out how long they will hold to that arraignment.

Personally i dont think they are going to disadvantage Lewis just so Bottas can have his turn.

I would be very surprised, alarmed really, if they dont update their rules of engagement to fit their current situation.

Everyone has a plan until they have been punched!

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Add this to the continual theme that it is a car that doesn't like following other cars.

There was a comment in the commentary that this year it wasn’t as bad following other cars as it was compared to other seasons. It seemed pretty good at Baku. Obviously the main reason it didn’t get past the Red Bulls was that it wasn’t quicker.

Something to look out for at later races.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

I would be very surprised, alarmed really, if they dont update their rules of engagement to fit their current situation.

Having reached this point - and with the obvious competition that Max is providing, with the increasingly more able support of Checo, they would be mad not to make the position quite clear for Valtteri.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Having reached this point - and with the obvious competition that Max is providing, with the increasingly more able support of Checo, they would be mad not to make the position quite clear for Valtteri.

Exactly my thoughts. Perez is doing the perfect back up role that Bottas did in the past, but certainly not now. They need Valterri to raise his game more than ever

[Tourer]

Agree that they may well need to change their modus operandi and specifically have Valtteri running backup for Lewis, to deal with RB but Ferrari are much closer this year too.

The talk of this year's aero changes hurting the low rake cars more probably has impacted Mercedes more than they expected, Mr Wolff has said that they're focussing on developing next year's car and running with what they have this year (whether or not that is wholly factual) and I suspect that they are missing DAS.

They had the benefit of DAS when none of their rivals did - so the rivals needed to work hard and develop ways to be competitive without it but Mercedes obviously never had to do that and is now on the same learning curve that rivals were on as the benefits of DAS became apparent.

Put that all together and the challenging year that Mercedes is having this year makes some sense - might be more to it as well but from an observer's POV, those are factors that jump out to me.

[Adam43]

I think there is a real danger they tie themselves in knots worrying about being fair to the two drivers.

The expectation is that Hamilton will be ahead, obviously, but if they get paranoid about what simpletons on twitter say it will be a big distraction.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I think there is a real danger they tie themselves in knots worrying about being fair to the two drivers.

The expectation is that Hamilton will be ahead, obviously, but if they get paranoid about what simpletons on twitter say it will be a big distraction.

Agree - they are competitive people and you'd expect will take whatever decisions they need to so that they remain competitive.

[GTRMagic]

You might have thought that MBF1 may crank up the engine modes to improve performance... if they have been operating in 'safe' mode during the races, cranking on some additional boost and/or energy from the battery may be available.

Something has to happen... they have to dominate... or this thread becomes real.. and that cant happen...

[Greem]

Regardless of the situation between the drivers at Merc will be for the rest of the season, if they're pushed along by RBR, Ferrari and the nibbling midfielders but Hamilton still wins the championship then we'll have a far better appreciation of just how good he can be.

Best car? Sure, he'll win.
Middling car? Let's see!

[crmalcolm]

[TrapezeArtist]

[QUOTE=chunterer;4055046I can't imagine any other driver in a top team accepting a strategy that disadvantages them in favour of their teammate particularly at a track VB had usually excelled at.[/QUOTE]

Ronnie Peterson at Lotus.
Eddie Irvine, Rubens Barrichello, Felipe Massa at Ferrari.
I'm sure there are others.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Thanks, they're brilliant!

[E.B]

Yep, they made me chuckle on a gloomy morning so thanks @crm.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Ronnie Peterson at Lotus.
Eddie Irvine, Rubens Barrichello, Felipe Massa at Ferrari.
I'm sure there are others.

I mean now, not historically and even then the cases are extremely rare!

Irvine, Rubens and Massa are not examples I would use either because they were not considered no.1 level drivers.

[S griffin]

I wouldn't say Bottas is quite number 1 material, he floats between being a number 1 driver and number 2 driver

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I mean now, not historically and even then the cases are extremely rare!

Irvine, Rubens and Massa are not examples I would use either because they were not considered no.1 level drivers.

Nor is Bottas by most people.... I would perfectly happily equate Bottas with Rubens and Felipe. Eddie - perhaps not.

[S griffin]

Yes I would definitely put Bottas equal with Rubinho. Both good enough to beat their superstar team mate on their day, but not everyday