Turn 1 run off at PI

[PVDA]

I was watching McConvilles off at Turn 1 today and thought about the potential for him to have cleaned up another car going through Turn 3.

I'd hate to think what would've happened to any car he nailed considering how quickly they go around Turn 3 and what that car might've hit or ended up (Moffat's dam is a possibility).

I remember that they removed the wall on the outer edge of the Turn 1 run off several years ago to make more room but that also removed the protection for cars entering Turn 3.

This allowed McConvilles car to have enough space to stop of it's own accord but exposed anyone in the wrong place the chance of getting hit.

Now motorsport has an ongoing safety improvement program that looks at incidents such as these and learns and improves things from them so it will be interesting to see what is done as a result of this incident.

[GTRMagic]

McConville's crash

Earth bank?

[sizzle]

I think part (a lot) of the problem lies with the motorcycle friendly gravel traps. As was pretty evident today they don't do much to stop cars.

[Ricky Bobby]

Sizzle, the phrase 'Hit the nail on the head" comes to mind.

[PVDA]

Sorry guys but the bike fraternity don't like the gravel traps either as they believe the rocks used are too big and rough.

They'd much rather have nice rounded river pebbles that don't tear leathers to pieces.

If you watch the YouTube footage the earth bank was located around about where the black area is at the back of the gravel trap.

[STEALTHY]

I know i'm cross replying here, but i figure since this is the thread on the topic its worth pointing out here

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

I am more curious as to why the gravel trap did little to arrest the speed of the #8 car, and also whether the driver attempted to assist the car to turn while skipping along the top of that trap.

The pics clearly show the BOC car do a 180 degree turn... Mr McConville is lucky it didnt dig its wheels in and flip over and over and over and over and over....

I am not convinced the car or driver would have survived that type of incident started at that speed!

I seem to remember a red car at the chase at bathurst who deliberately turned the car to roll over knowing if he didn't, it would surely be a hard head on hit (like the Rat, either time).

Agree/disagree that was a good idea (assuming Cam DID turn the car, not just the fact that the left wheel was 45degrees away from the car that turned it)

[Pro Racer]

it was **** scary especially when it almost collected Bezzy, a couple of poof tenths later and the drills Bezzy into Bass Straight. something needs to be done, what that is i don't really know as i'm not an expert but some wall/earth bank could possibly be erected there.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Pro Racer

it was **** scary especially when it almost collected Bezzy, a couple of poof tenths later and the drills Bezzy into Bass Straight. something needs to be done, what that is i don't really know as i'm not an expert but some wall/earth bank could possibly be erected there.

And what would hitting one of those backwards at 200k's do......

I think a different design sand trap is all it needs, somethink with wave type thins to grab the car (think a high bit at the front, followed by a long slope down, to the next high bit, to grab the car)

I think the risk of a rollover (if the car ends up sideways) is much safer (for the driver here, yes the car might be destroyed) than a car making it through the trap onto the circuit

[Pro Racer]

as i said not an expert.

yes a wavey type sand trap would likly arrest the car abit more but going backwards i still see that car getting atleast onto the track at the otherside.

maybe both that style cand trap and a wall could be put in????? the sand trap wipes alot of thespeed off the car so intead of full bore 200 klicks it get down to atleast low 100's or possibly not even hitting the wall just have the wall there just incase a car does come out the otherside.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Pro Racer

as i said not an expert.

yes a wavey type sand trap would likly arrest the car abit more but going backwards i still see that car getting atleast onto the track at the otherside

If its deep enough they wont get through, it would just hit the next wave and flip end over end, better than a dead stop like a earth bank would be.

[GROUPA]

As much as Linfox has done to make the track safe there is obviously still a long way to go. Nothing has really been done where Hansford was killed between turn 1 & turn 2 and Siberia is still taking out a few on car club track days.

I appluad what Linfox has done, dont get me wrong but tyres filled with earth does not cut it these days and as good as nice green grass looks on televison is does not stop people. eg Jones last year, Bowe opposite side of the track years ago etc....

[PVDA]

I do have to say from years of watching race car crash in front of me that a rollover is marginally better than head buttinging a wall of some form.

[emjaya]

Originally Posted by GROUPA

dont get me wrong but tyres filled with earth does not cut it these days....

Why do the tyres have to be filled with dirt? Tyre walls work when bolted together and kept empty, not filled with dirt to make a solid wall.

[peckstar]

what would have been more scarier Cam slamming into a tyre wall or Cam slamming into Besnard

then balance that against Holdworth slamming into a tyre wall and holdsowrth pulling up like he did.

then we have the issue of what would have happened if a car went out of control and slammed into a tyre wall where besnard was (not at the same time as cam, while possible in theory its extremely unlikely)

[Driver TBA]

Firstly I'm no expert on track safety.

Would a catch net like what is used at the end of the braking area at most drag strips (after the sand trap) work? Would stop cars coming back onto the track and would be a softer impact than hitting an earth bank.
Only problem would be the logistics in repairing/replacing catch net during a race, could also be removed if not required for bike races.

Or the 'safer' barriers used in NASCAR? Or do they only work more for side on impacts you see in super speedways?

[Chatters]

Originally Posted by peckstar

what would have been more scarier Cam slamming into a tyre wall or Cam slamming into Besnard

then balance that against Holdworth slamming into a tyre wall and holdsowrth pulling up like he did.

First of all I'm not criticising your post peck, just using it as an example.

Holdsworth had brakes, Cam did not. That's the difference. I think the chances of a car losing its brakes and its steering (I think it was clear Cam only had steering in the front left wheel if any at all) at the same time, at that corner, are very remote. Watching the replay again another problem with that gravel trap is that there is a drop down from the track to the gravel trap, and that it goes downhill. Any car is always just going to skim across the top if it stays like that. Level the gravel trap out so it is at least the same height as Turn 1, stick a concrete barrier at the end of the trap and add some loose tyre bundles in front it.

[peckstar]

see you've brought up one of the key issues with safety chatters.

do you build safety around worse case scenario, say the cam incident. and just accept that Holdsworth as a casualty of making us safe (holdworth went out anyway, but would have had more damage with a tyre wall)

or you could argue that things worked properly anyway, no one was injured, the run off areas did there job, and if besnard had of hit him well that may have still been better than cam hitting a wall of some sort

then we have to balance that to the chase at bathurst and cars slamming across the road there, although the car on the track is at much slower speed that where bessie was at PI

[B!tchie Renault]

As I have never been to Phillip Island, I may be wrong but there appears to be a significant downslope on the runoff of Turn 1. Would that be right.

Gravel Traps do not appear to do the job effectively when they are sloping downhill. Maybe have the Gravel Trap graded uphill, depending on how the topography goes with run-off drainage and tying back to the edge of the track at turn 3. I have noticed the gravel trap at the Esses in Bathurst has been removed. When the gravel trap was installed at the Karrussel (spelling?) at Lakeside, there was significant earthworks there for the gravel trap to be graded uphill.

The bundle tyres (not filled) will also slow an out of control vehicle as like when the V8 Ute went firing down the run-off in Townsville.

Many years ago, Tony Longhurst went straight on at Hungry Corner at Lakeside in his EF Falcon and was stopped by a rusty chainwire fence that was at the edge of the pit entry road. I believe this fence stopped Longhurst from going across the track at the last turn of Lakeside. So a catch fence (one that can absorb the impact) might also be a solution, but this would only be effective once and then replaced. To replace the fence is a lot cheaper than replacing a couple of cars and drivers.

[Silver 3]

Interesting that a lot of comment here about being downhill-it is only relatively gentle slope in trap area.
What I think could be done is to create a uphill slope in the trap and across--preferably that kept existing view of the track across the area ( all possible) .
Secondly a tyre catch wall,or a series of walls-not earth filled ,but secured and designed to give to a degree .
The main issue here is to prevent the recalcerint car being able to reach the track in that direction.
I cannot remember seeing in a race meeting anything like this before.

[bludvl_x19]

Could it be at all possible that the gravel traps had been made more 'bike friendly' for this weekend? By that I mean so that the bike could make it across the trap and rejoin the race? In my head, I can see this being done by making the gravel flat instead of rippled so a car would dig in. This could also cause the problems that we saw with the V8s

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

I cannot remember seeing in a race meeting anything like this before.

400 people have hit turn 8 at clipsal and walked away without a Scratch. One driver wasn't so lucky. Just because its never happened before, doesn't mean it cant happen again. The fact it happened twice in the race (although the 2nd car had brakes) makes it quite likely to happen again if changes aren't made.

[Pro Racer]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

400 people have hit turn 8 at clipsal and walked away without a Scratch. One driver wasn't so lucky. Just because its never happened before, doesn't mean it cant happen again. The fact it happened twice in the race (although the 2nd car had brakes) makes it quite likely to happen again if changes aren't made.

all it takes it a little failure in the front end and your going straight on and a failure can happen at anytime in any race. the contact between Cam and Steve while unlikely to happen can. definatly the posibility of happening again.

[BFC]

re the earth wall at Turn 1.the bosses son was riding a Supebike many years ago and went straight ahead and hit the wall head on the front end collapsed and the right hand fork went into his neck,spent 2 weeks in hospital.........irs not the speed that hurts,suddenly becoming staionary does.

[Jacob Black]

Exactly BFC, car guys are often don't think beyond cars in times like these, the fact is, Phillip Island has had to undergo a LOT of work to make it safe enough for the WSBK and MotoGP, as well as the ASBK, that earth bank was NOT conducive to anyones safety, in particular motorbikes, but also ,as mentioned earlier, cars like when Greg Murphy hit it. Motorsport is dangerous, this would have been horrible had Cam hit a solid object, I think any impact with another car would have been pretty rough, but you have to make reasonable comprimises.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by BFC

re the earth wall at Turn 1.the bosses son was riding a Supebike many years ago and went straight ahead and hit the wall head on the front end collapsed and the right hand fork went into his neck,spent 2 weeks in hospital.........irs not the speed that hurts,suddenly becoming staionary does.

This is also my reasoning for a different designed sand trap.