Quality not quantity

[Peter Mallett]

Or perhaps the manufacturers should actually have no say in the regs.

But then again if its a Vauxhall championship then who needs it anyway?

[Adam43]

I agree with what you are saying. However the manufacturers put a lot into the championship and it must be hard to disregard them. I thought this year would have been a good one to move on to a different set of rules, nothing is ever that simple though.

[Super Tourer]

This year has turned out politically 'tricky' for TOCA.

Explain...

As Adam says, continuing with two sets of rules has made for a difficult balancing act. Last year was different, Seat came in as a new manufacturer with a backdrop of Vauxhall sweeping all before them - it was in the interests of TOCA (and the series) to encourage another manufacturer in and to see a challenge to Vauxhall - this made it less difficult (IMO) for TOCA to play with the weights more to make Seat competitive.

This year is was in a way unfortunate that two teams decided to invest in building brand new BTC cars - you can understand the reasoning - both TD and VXR had an existing baseline and running gear to work from.

But it leaves less leeway for TOCA to adjust the weight to make the S2000 cars competitive, undoubtedly long time BTCC supporters VXR and TD would rightly point to their heavy investment in new cars being potentially eroded by altering weights of S2000 cars.

The best thing for the BTCC will be the end of BTC regulations and the series running all S2000 cars, it keeps things simple.

[Phoenix1]

Even with so little cars it has to be one of the closest races and one of the best for a while. Very enjoable and with more cars coming it should just get better. The fact is the cars where close and mainly competative. That's what makes it exciting not just number of cars. 33 cars would be nice but this is a domestic race series and the otehr one is a mix of many domestic series all rolled into one. The fact Alan has held together the series running with quality cars is a massive boost and hopefully the BTC cars will pop over and race the WTCC to show them who are best :-D

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Super Tourer

The best thing for the BTCC will be the end of BTC regulations and the series running all S2000 cars, it keeps things simple.

Very true ST

I wouldn't want to suggest it's entirely their fault but I feel that in some ways Vauxhall are at least partly to blame for the current situation. As we've said no manufacturer is going to invest in building a car specifically to BTCC regulations and unless the equalisation between BTCC and S2000 can be sorted no one is going to bring in a S2000 car either. even for independent teams, there's plenty of ex-works S2000 cars around but whats the point if you are only going to be an also-ran.

As I recall the BTCC regs are set until 2006 which means an even tougher decision for TOCA. Do you end them a year early thereby upsetting the 2 biggest supporters of the series (Vauxhall and TD) or do you continue for another year and risk an even smaller grid.

[N I Tram]

It's mainly the second half of the grid that we've lost, and I suspect each team has their own reason for not being there - VLR because of Vic's circumstances, Arena because of Chilton's decision to do the DTM, GA need a funded driver, Tech-Speed have lost Vauxhall backing and some sponsors, and so on.

The irony is that we spent most of the winter wondering who the 18 entries for ChampCar would be, and we've ended up with a fairly strong 19-car field there, but a measly BTCC field.

Vauxhall inadvertantly held the BTCC to ransom by building their new car in BTC-T specs, as did Dynamics. It's hard to equalise 2 completely different sets of cars, and I guess afew teams who would've otherwise contemplated entering an old Alfa or BMW felt that they wouldn't be able to be competitive.

[Super Tourer]

There is a third issue.....which is not helping the situation.

There are plenty of ex BTC cars on the market/available for use, but the reality is that running a 2/3 year old Astra coupe is going to be as expensive as running a year old S2000 car - it could be more, as the cost of keeping old cars both competitive and reliable is high and in reality you are powerless to improve, as the front running cars set the pace.

AG tells us that a new manufacturer will enter in 2006 - it's safe to assume that will be under S2000 regs, no one is going to invest in a car the rules of which have only a year to run and are not 'international'. The creates the possibility of a Seat 2004 situation, whereby TOCA will want to ingraciate themselves with another car maker, yet do not want to be seen to favour it against the established teams.

The bite on the bullet situation is to bring foward the end of BTC rules (as Redshoes suggests) - then of course we have situation number four - with both VXR and TD having expensively designed and built cars that are obselete after 12 months and to add insult to injury - unsaleable and worthless - except for Britcar possibly.

One solution is to tiddle about with the weight and see if a slight compromise can be reached - we have only had one race so it's a fair argument to wait and see, but I think we all expected the Seats to be front running and they weren't.

The other solution is to sound out teams VXR and TD about the possibility of converting their cars to S2000 spec in 2006 and their feelings on it.

Otherwise I can see a 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' situation where one set of cars is going to be slightly disadvantaged against the other, to be honest their aren't enough entrants to risk upsetting and taking their money elsewhere.

[CallumC]

how difficult would it be to convert TOCA spec cars to S2000?? I didnt think there was that much in it but I could well be wrong. why did toca go their own way with the regs anyway, surely common sense would have told them to stick with the FIA???

Callum

[Sodemo]

I wonder why Vauxhall chose to develop their new 2005 Astra to the BTC regs when logic would suggest building it to the ETCC (WTCC) would be a better move for the future (assuming those regs are going to become the 'norm').
Maybe they see the BTC regs giving them an advantage over the ETCC spec Seat's?
Just seems strange that Vauxhall have gone down this route...

[TomS]

Vauxhall were also familiar with the regs and i dont know if they did they same as TD but TD mentioned how they carried over various parts (running gear etc) making the new cars easier. Is there any other ways to equalize the regs? At this rate it looks like although the grids could improve they could also do the opposite...as said above with little sponsors on most of the cars what if there is a big accident?

[captain crunch]

I think there was no need for 888 to run a BTC spec car this year. They could have opted for the new S2000 Chevrolet Lacetti- Chevrolet is also part of the GM group, and has been running a big advertising campaign this year to mark their launch in europe. It would have saved 888 money as the WTCC team will do the development work, and they would have had access to their data. But then again, doesn't RML run the Chevy WTCC program?

[touringlegend]

I don't think it's exactly fair to blame VXR or TD for building a car that is eligible with the series!

These two teams know than in a couple of years time their cars could be rendered useless, but well that's their choice.

The way I understand it is when the BTC Rules were created back in 2000, then the Super 2000 were created after, the FIA proposed adopting the BTCC rules as they were pretty straightforward.

Every manufacturer (Alfa, VW, Ford etc) were in agreement to use the BTCC rules, the only objection being from BMW who wanted to use Super 2000. Super 2000 was basically and upgraded production spec car.

And who had been running a Production car for a few years...yep BMW!


Not so much Vauxhall or TD to blame, as BMW!


Rob I think mentioned earlier the buzz seems to have gone, but I don't know where from. We still have VXR, SEAT, TD, WSR, I just can't see where from! I remember in 2001 the first time we had a grid as 'big' as 12, but now it seems quite empty infact.

[redshoes]

The writing was on the wall as soon as the FIA introduced S2000 regs but by then the BTCC had aleady gone their own way. One solution would have been not to end BTC regs earlier than agreed but to start phasing them out sooner. By that I mean allow existing BTC-Tourers to continue until 2006 but insist that any newly built cars comply to S2000 regs. That would force Vauxhall to switch whilst not leaving independents stuck with worthless Tourers. That still doesn't solve the tricky problem of ballast but then whilst you have 2 sets of regs that's always going to be an issue.

[rdjones]

I maybe wrong here, but wasn't the Vectra that Triple 8 built about 18 months ago, which was tested and but never raced built to S2000 reg's?

[Kicking-back]

No, Rod, it was BTC spec.

[kmchow]

Originally Posted by redshoes

By that I mean allow existing BTC-Tourers to continue until 2006 but insist that any newly built cars comply to S2000 regs. That would force Vauxhall to switch whilst not leaving independents stuck with worthless Tourers.

While I agree the organizers should switch to S2000 rules, would Vauxhall have agreed to such hard handed measures? Would they have rather quit the BTCC than build cars to S2000 spec? I guess the organizers couldn't have taken that chance?

[kmchow]

Originally Posted by captain crunch

I think there was no need for 888 to run a BTC spec car this year. They could have opted for the new S2000 Chevrolet Lacetti-

But if they switched to the Lacetti, wouldn't Vauxhall struggle against the competition? By staying with BTC rules, Vauxhall is virtually guaranteed a 3 or 4 consecutive championship! And winning/bragging rights is what every manufacturer wants?

[KA]

Originally Posted by kmchow

While I agree the organizers should switch to S2000 rules, would Vauxhall have agreed to such hard handed measures? Would they have rather quit the BTCC than build cars to S2000 spec? I guess the organizers couldn't have taken that chance?

It's a difficult dilemma- I suppose it ultimately comes down to trying to balance the interests of one manufacturer (even if they have been one of the BTCC's most loyal supporters) against the interests of the series as a whole- if switching to S2000 could bring in say Alfa and BMW, would it be worth risking the loss of Vauxhall?

Just a thought, but a switch to S2000 could actually make more sense for GM overall- after all, an S2000 Vauxhall for the BTCC could also be an S2000 Opel for the WTCC or any other series around Europe (assuming GM would accept any of their other brands competing agianst Chevrolet in the WTCC......)

[Peter Mallett]

Yes but now you're applying logic!

[TomS]

Exactly! They couldnt have used the Chevy in BTCC....well not with 888 i would imagine as RML run the chevys in WTCC and doubt they would be too pleased to have to cooperate

[touringlegend]

Chevy's model line up is completely different to Vauxhall's, or Opel's for that matter so that's one way that wouldn't work.

[Les]

i was thinking exactly the same - it was so quiet that it could have passed as a club meeting.

For the first time ever I did not go into the touring car paddock until 3 hours after I got there - I could not see the point and I knew there would be nothing to see.

But the meeting as a whole had a lot of good racing - the Seats and Clios and Porsches were great (can't comment on the single seaters as I don't watch them).

[kmchow]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

Chevy's model line up is completely different to Vauxhall's, or Opel's for that matter so that's one way that wouldn't work.

Unlike the Vectra/Cavalier which was raced under different brands, the Lancetti will only be branded as a Chevy so I guess there's no possibility a Lancetti entry could be rebranded under the Vauxhall brand for example.

[captain crunch]

Would the Lacetti even need to be rebranded as a vauxhall? I was thinking it could be entered as a chevy as it's part of the GM group also, and to be run by the same team (888). Chevrolet's being pushed hard in it's advertising campaign, so i can't see how a BTCC program could hurt that if the car's already designed and built. That said, i'm not familiar with General Motor's internal politics.

[touringlegend]

Just wondering why we're talking about Chevy's being rebranded Vauxhalls here ?

Chevrolet have their model line up (formerly Daewoo) and Vauxhall have there's. The two makes do not sell each other's rebadged models.