IMSA IMSA : 2019

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

But just this: Can you provide me with Evidence that a lot of people think AER produces junk? You have already provided evidence that they don't ... but you claim other people think they do.

Everywhere I go, I see nothing but hate piled onto AER. I can't remember the last time I saw anything good stated about them by random commenters on forums and news sites.

You are arguing nonsense here. I am presenting facts.

I'm not arguing anything. I'm pointing out that far too many people seem to have an opinion of AER that's far lower than they deserve, and what it is about them that likely contributes to it(in my opinion).

Guess who wins?

Nobody. It's not about winning or losing.

[jimclark]

C'mon Mae....sometimes it's beneficial to have a heavier car for cornering, no? Wha's the mattuh wit' you???

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by jimclark

C'mon Mae....sometimes it's beneficial to have a heavier car for cornering, no? Wha's the mattuh wit' you???

I remember watching a NASCAR race where the commentator said weight is a good thing because a heavier car has more downforce and therefore can corner faster.

It was a unique view on vehicle dynamics for sure.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I remember watching a NASCAR race where the commentator said weight is a good thing because a heavier car has more downforce and therefore can corner faster.

It was a unique view on vehicle dynamics for sure.

hey, trains are really heavy, and they corner as if on rails.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I remember watching a NASCAR race where the commentator said weight is a good thing because a heavier car has more downforce and therefore can corner faster.

It was a unique view on vehicle dynamics for sure.

If the extra weight lowers the center of gravity sufficiently, the heavier car actually MIGHT take corners faster than the lighter one.... Though not every corner.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

If the extra weight lowers the center of gravity sufficiently, the heavier car actually MIGHT take corners faster than the lighter one.... Though not every corner.

to achieve that, just get a lower ride height....

[TF110]

Downforce might be a overcoming factor but too much weight can never be cured. The f1 cars are the fastest ever but are also very heavy relatively.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by TF110

Downforce might be a overcoming factor but too much weight can never be cured. The f1 cars are the fastest ever but are also very heavy relatively.

Actually downforce is the key, aero development makes huge steps forward year by year, that's why in 2018, about 750kg/800hp+hybrid boost f1 cars are several seconds faster than 2004 f1 cars that were 150kg lighter and had about 950hp available from greenlight to checked flag

[chernaudi]

Let's not forget tire development, especially in the WEC over the years, though it's thought that in IMSA that the new Michelin tires will make cars, at least on a flying lap, significantly faster.


There were reports that the GTD cars on Michelins were lapping at race sim pace as fast as they went in qualifying last year on the Continentals.

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Let's not forget tire development, especially in the WEC over the years, though it's thought that in IMSA that the new Michelin tires will make cars, at least on a flying lap, significantly faster.


There were reports that the GTD cars on Michelins were lapping at race sim pace as fast as they went in qualifying last year on the Continentals.

GTLM and GTD could be very close in 2019 on lap times. Personally I don't see that as a big deal. These are GT cars we are talking about here. GTLM will still be slightly quicker. Especially since the "Am" drivers will take qualifying laps and the start at the races.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

If the extra weight lowers the center of gravity sufficiently, the heavier car actually MIGHT take corners faster than the lighter one.... Though not every corner.

Originally Posted by TF110

Downforce might be a overcoming factor but too much weight can never be cured. The f1 cars are the fastest ever but are also very heavy relatively.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

hey, trains are really heavy, and they corner as if on rails.

Clueless, aren't we....? Does anyone know their physics?

edit: Mae...I feel like this is the SPEEDVISION boards. It didn't used to be... )

Handling 101....
Minimum weights exist for a reason, no?
Adding, let's say, one hundred pounds of mass, does not equal more than that to counter the lateral force of that mass in a corner. Downforce (let's say 500 pounds of it) from a 20 pound wing, however, is worth more the than the weight of the wing.

'Good idea to study a bit of physics before spewing (hopefully) ignorance, no?

[canaglia]

agree, downforce is not created by the mass of the car but by the air that pushes down the car through wings and venturi effect generated by air flow trough diffuser.
You add too much mass on rear and you'll get a car loose and unstable; you add too much mass on front, you'll get the worst understeering ever.

That's in theory; in reality there have been cars that even if heavier, didn't show any real handling/performance/aero issue; example 2017 cadillac dpi: heavier than other dpi and lmp2 and with a mandatory LD rear wing setting.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by jimclark

'Good idea to study a bit of physics before spewing (hopefully) ignorance, no?

I already know the physics. My statement was indeed accurate - in SOME corners, a heavier car with a lower center of gravity will outcorner a lighter car with a higher center of gravity.


Notice I didn't say anything about relative downforce levels of each car, though.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

I already know the physics. My statement was indeed accurate - in SOME corners, a heavier car with a lower center of gravity will outcorner a lighter car with a higher center of gravity.

'Got me. I didn't notice we were talking houses and pianos. Silly me.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by jimclark

'Got me. I didn't notice we were talking houses and pianos. Silly me.

Removing tongue from cheek, it is worth keeping in mind that if one is talking talking differences of only a hundred pounds or so it's not at all strange for the center of gravity to have a bigger effect than the difference in the weight. But when you're talking about a difference of multiple hundreds of pounds, VERY different story.

I recall once reading an outline about the effects of center of gravity and weight that demonstrated all other things being equal you can get about 200 pounds heavier before the added weight would offset any possible changes to the car's center of gravity. Bu as this was LONG ago, I do NOT recall what points of reference(IE, what cars) were being used in the example, so don't take that as gospel. I use "a hundred pounds or so" for my example because on most racecars(IE, not F1), 100 pounds isn't actually as much as it sounds like.

[Maelochs]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

I already know the physics. My statement was indeed accurate - in SOME corners, a heavier car with a lower center of gravity will outcorner a lighter car with a higher center of gravity.

Cars tend to corner faster than bicycles. Obviously weight improves cornering.

Heavier cars with potentially more power and significantly less downforce---but movable downforce devices---how they will work has not been discussed, as far as I can see. Are we talking DRS-style wings? Flaps and winglets? I haven't read anything about it.

In any case ... I am not one of those fans who cannot enjoy the race if the cars are not going faster than ever. I don't see where a 3:40 lap at Le Mans is a lot less exciting than a 3:20 lap.

It will be interesting to see how often and how radically the proposed rules change once the manufacturers start lobbying and threatening.

[jimclark]

You guys are really losing me. You're talking different weight apples vs oranges (differently designed vehicles) and I'm talking different weight oranges vs oranges (same vehicles).

I repeat, mass is the enemy of changing direction. This is why rules dictate minimum weights.(other reasons also, of course, such as integrity for safety) There is no racer that does not want to lighten their race car, if they are not down against that minimum, if they can. (Very Important: without changing the characteristics of that car such as torsional stiffness, integrity, etc. etc.)

If you take any of your individual vehicles and lighten them, there wouuld be less mass to change direction and every one of those idividual vehicles would corner faster, bar none.

"Heavier" is never better.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by jimclark

You guys are really losing me. You're talking different weight apples vs oranges (differently designed vehicles) and I'm talking different weight oranges vs oranges (same vehicles).

My comments were tongue-in-cheek until I expressly noted otherwise.

I repeat, mass is the enemy of changing direction. This is why rules dictate minimum weights.(other reasons also, of course, such as integrity for safety) There is no racer that does not want to lighten their race car, if they are not down against that minimum, if they can. (Very Important: without changing the characteristics of that car such as torsional stiffness, integrity, etc. etc.)

If you take any of your individual vehicles and lighten them, there wouuld be less mass to change direction and every one of those idividual vehicles would corner faster, bar none.

"Heavier" is never better.

Not automatically true.

Yes, significant differences in weight WILL make the heavier car slower, but if the weight increase is small, and the center of gravity lowered sufficiently, it IS possible for the heavier car to corner better - it won't be by any massive degree, though. We're talking almost imperceptible differences.

Weight distribution does matter; It's why cars are generally built under the minimum weight - positioning the ballast properly helps the car corner better. The same physics apply here, and a few extra pounds pounds isn't

But you can take two identical cars, add a small but significant amount of ballast weight to one down on the bottom of chassis, and if enough weight is removed from other areas to lower it's center of gravity enough, it IS possible for the heavier one to corner SLIGHTLY better than the other car.

Yes, mass is the enemy of cornering. But if the additional weight is within a certain range(it will vary based on the type of car), and it is distributed properly, the mass can be used to help generate additional mechanical grip, which can overcome the inertia of the extra mass. This is true even among vehicles of identical design - it's not just an apples vs oranges thing.

But the type of people who extoll the notion of "weight is downforce" aren't talking about these small ranges of additional weight, they're talking about levels that to be true would mean NASCAR racers could outcorner any vehicle producing under 3300 pounds(NASCAR minimum weight) of aeroynamic grip. Which anyone with a brains knows is about 3300 forms of NOT HAPPENING.

[Maelochs]

This is ridiculous.

Unless the car only droves in circles on a skidpad .... weight affects All acceleration.

Slower acceleration longer stopping distances, more stress on the tires in the corners.

Even if the heavier car has a lower center of gravity And more downforce, it will just eat up the tires faster.

it is however, useful to know that we should always assume that Formless Fox is not being serious. Previously I had occasionally wondered about his sanity ... now I know he was just always kidding.

(All tongue in cheek.)

[Accident]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqTjKhYh4fs

[Adam43]

[joeb]

You know what i just realized? This is an IMSA thread and we've been talking about weights on new WEC cars. Lets try to get back to the topic.

For instance, more driver announcements for the Rolex24

Starworks adds Haase and Companc.

https://sportscar365.com/imsa/iwsc/h...-for-rolex-24/

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

My comments were tongue-in-cheek until I expressly noted otherwise.
Not automatically true.
(A)Yes, significant differences in weight WILL make the heavier car slower, but if the weight increase is small, and the center of gravity lowered sufficiently, it IS possible for the heavier car to corner better - it won't be by any massive degree, though. We're talking almost imperceptible differences.
(B)Weight distribution does matter; It's why cars are generally built under the minimum weight - positioning the ballast properly helps the car corner better. The same physics apply here, and a few extra pounds pounds isn't
(C)But you can take two identical cars, add a small but significant amount of ballast weight to one down on the bottom of chassis, and if enough weight is removed from other areas to lower it's center of gravity enough, it IS possible for the heavier one to corner SLIGHTLY better than the other car.

Yes, mass is the enemy of cornering. But if the additional weight is within a certain range(it will vary based on the type of car), and it is distributed properly, the mass can be used to help generate additional mechanical grip, which can overcome the inertia of the extra mass. This is true even among vehicles of identical design - it's not just an apples vs oranges thing.

But the type of people who extoll the notion of "weight is downforce" aren't talking about these small ranges of additional weight, they're talking about levels that to be true would mean NASCAR racers could outcorner any vehicle producing under 3300 pounds(NASCAR minimum weight) of aeroynamic grip. Which anyone with a brains knows is about 3300 forms of NOT HAPPENING.

Originally Posted by Maelochs

This is ridiculous.

(D)Unless the car only droves in circles on a skidpad .... weight affects All acceleration.

Slower acceleration longer stopping distances, more stress on the tires in the corners.

Even if the heavier car has a lower center of gravity And more downforce, it will just eat up the tires faster.

it is however, useful to know that we should always assume that Formless Fox is not being serious. Previously I had occasionally wondered about his sanity ... now I know he was just always kidding.

(All tongue in cheek)

(A,B & C) I have been speaking of all things being constant 'cept for weight (mass). (curiosity only...when have you participated ?)

(D) Stifle yourself Mae... I still wanna enter a semi tractor weighing x tons, w/1500 ft. lbs of torque in the 500 !!!

[Akrapovic]

Dear lord, I'm sorry I said it!

[jimclark]

Why? It's fun!!!