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Old 24 Jul 2017, 07:34 (Ref:3753884)   #601
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Zak Brown is a 'salesman', he made his fortune cutting sponsorship deals, he knows that he needs something to sell and that you can only trade on McLaren's heritage, past record and facilities for so long before you need the prospect of results, challenging for wins/titles to get new deals.

Of course it is an equation for McLaren - do they stick with Honda and a) hope they improve and b) continue to virtually fund the team and make up the ongoing shortfall from the loss of FOM income due to their WCC position? Or do they cut loose, get a more proven engine, hope they bolt it into a great car, manage to keep Alonso and let him do his magic and hope that translates into sufficient sponsorship to replace Honda's investment.

Worth remembering (and I am sure this in the back of ZB's mind) that allegedly the start of RD's downfall was around sponsorship, the lack of it and then his insistence that McLaren didn't need sponsorship as it could be funded by the McLaren Group - something that didn't chime with his other shareholders and ultimately started the process that saw him exit.
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 07:50 (Ref:3753889)   #602
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All of this fuss how horrible the package is just something to chit chat during the season. Even though its the bad press McLaren got so much more exposure because of it and if it turns into a success story it will be a story of the generation. Everybody is interested in team's progression cause there is an very active development. McLaren would never get that much exposure if they were running in the mid pack like Renault or Williams with leased engines.
Oh dear!! The extent the faithful would go to!

Zak Brown must be fighting off all the sponsorship deals being thrown at him with all this "exposure" McLaren are getting. One could only dream of this type of exposure. McLaren should be so lucky!! And grateful!
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 08:08 (Ref:3753890)   #603
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Of course they will get it right cause they are spending money and man hours like crazy. All of this fuss how horrible the package is just something to chit chat during the season. Even though its the bad press McLaren got so much more exposure because of it and if it turns into a success story it will be a story of the generation. Everybody is interested in team's progression cause there is an very active development. McLaren would never get that much exposure if they were running in the mid pack like Renault or Williams with leased engines.

I'm cheering for Alonso/McLaren/Honda package cause they work their ass off trying to make up for coming late to the party. The only thing I mind is the public blame game by Boullier. That's like Samsung blaming the battery manufacturer for Note 7 fiasco even though it was Samsung who gave battery specs to the manufacturer. It doesn't work like that and I'm glad that someone pointed the finger at him not to do that kind of stuff in public anymore.

In my opinion if they somehow match Red Bull by 2019 I would consider it a success cause current engine specs were rigged by Mercedes who even threatened to pull out of the caravan if those proposed specs didn't turn out to be official specs. That's whole another story of Mercedes having the technology ready, lobbying for it and then presenting it as remarkable outside the box thinking compared to other teams.
Good post.


In my opinion if they somehow match Red Bull by 2019 I would consider it a success cause current engine specs were rigged by Mercedes who even threatened to pull out of the caravan if those proposed specs didn't turn out to be official specs. That's whole another story of Mercedes having the technology ready, lobbying for it and then presenting it as remarkable outside the box thinking compared to other teams

And charge the customers through the nose for de-rated engines, that nobody else is interested in developing.

Yeah they are just all about the sport!

Did you see this at 1min 05 with Eddie Jordan and Bob Fernley!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOwFzhUwGHA

...and they let their drivers race one another because it is in the interests of the sport!

Last edited by wnut; 24 Jul 2017 at 08:30.
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 08:51 (Ref:3753907)   #604
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Oh dear!! The extent the faithful would go to!

Zak Brown must be fighting off all the sponsorship deals being thrown at him with all this "exposure" McLaren are getting. One could only dream of this type of exposure. McLaren should be so lucky!! And grateful!
Speaking of which, have they signed anyone since Ron departed.
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 12:41 (Ref:3753937)   #605
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Originally Posted by Moneyseeker View Post
Zak Brown is a 'salesman', he made his fortune cutting sponsorship deals, he knows that he needs something to sell and that you can only trade on McLaren's heritage, past record and facilities for so long before you need the prospect of results, challenging for wins/titles to get new deals.

Of course it is an equation for McLaren - do they stick with Honda and a) hope they improve and b) continue to virtually fund the team and make up the ongoing shortfall from the loss of FOM income due to their WCC position? Or do they cut loose, get a more proven engine, hope they bolt it into a great car, manage to keep Alonso and let him do his magic and hope that translates into sufficient sponsorship to replace Honda's investment.

Worth remembering (and I am sure this in the back of ZB's mind) that allegedly the start of RD's downfall was around sponsorship, the lack of it and then his insistence that McLaren didn't need sponsorship as it could be funded by the McLaren Group - something that didn't chime with his other shareholders and ultimately started the process that saw him exit.
Isn't Mr Brown also on the board of Cosworth?
McLaren-Cosworth anyone?

Mr Brown is a student of motorsport history, just took delivery of the 2011 Bathurst 1000 winner to add to his collection.
Surely he knows how to butter the bread to keep the lights burning..
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 14:14 (Ref:3753951)   #606
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With Zac Brown being a marketing type, and with honda in both IndyCar and f1, if he's somewhat stuck with or committed to Honda for next year, he should try to swap Alonso and someone like Scott Dixon from IndyCar for next year and create attention (some positive for Honda) for both series where honda is spending money. Give Alonso a championship caliber drive in IndyCar for a year while Honda sorts thkngs out, and create curiosity as to how an indycar champ could do in f1, albeit in a weak car. He could still compete for points and against his teammate. The added cost for Honda is a drop in a bucket for an IndyCar drive. But it keeps Alonso in the fold for when (if) their car comes on in f1.
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 14:20 (Ref:3753954)   #607
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Isn't Mr Brown also on the board of Cosworth?
McLaren-Cosworth anyone?
This was speculated a few pages back in this thread. Most likely zero chance under current engine regulations. But who knows with the next set of regulations (2021) which will likely drop the MGU-H and maybe other requirements for a much simpler specification. All of which potentially allows non-manufactures to be competitive. The solutions today are too costly for those without deep pockets to do the required R&D. With this set of regulations, history has also shown that deep pockets and hard work do not guaranteed competitiveness.

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Old 24 Jul 2017, 15:07 (Ref:3753964)   #608
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Speaking of which, have they signed anyone since Ron departed.
not that i can recall but they were the subject of a very well played april fools day joke.

https://badgergp.com/mclaren-honda-s...nsorship-deal/
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 15:35 (Ref:3753971)   #609
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Isn't Mr Brown also on the board of Cosworth?
McLaren-Cosworth anyone?

Mr Brown is a student of motorsport history, just took delivery of the 2011 Bathurst 1000 winner to add to his collection.
Surely he knows how to butter the bread to keep the lights burning..
Cosworth is co-owned by Gerald Forsythe and Kevin Kalkhoven, former owners of CART team Forsythe Racing and IndyCar team KV Racing Technology, respectively and former joint owners of the Champ Car World Series, which reunified with the IRL's IndyCar series in 2008.

The decision will be up to them and currently Cosworth is preparing for a return to F1, as it commits to helping frame the new engine rules for 2021. Whether that turns into an arrangement with McLaren is too early to say.
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 15:38 (Ref:3753973)   #610
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With Zac Brown being a marketing type, and with honda in both IndyCar and f1, if he's somewhat stuck with or committed to Honda for next year, he should try to swap Alonso and someone like Scott Dixon from IndyCar for next year and create attention (some positive for Honda) for both series where honda is spending money. Give Alonso a championship caliber drive in IndyCar for a year while Honda sorts thkngs out, and create curiosity as to how an indycar champ could do in f1, albeit in a weak car. He could still compete for points and against his teammate. The added cost for Honda is a drop in a bucket for an IndyCar drive. But it keeps Alonso in the fold for when (if) their car comes on in f1.
I doubt very much Scott Dixon would want to leave Ganassi for McLaren. He's currently leading the IndyCar driver's championship and if he wins, would want to defend that championship.
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 15:40 (Ref:3753974)   #611
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Worth remembering (and I am sure this in the back of ZB's mind) that allegedly the start of RD's downfall was around sponsorship, the lack of it and then his insistence that McLaren didn't need sponsorship as it could be funded by the McLaren Group - something that didn't chime with his other shareholders and ultimately started the process that saw him exit.
I don't know if the actual story has been revealed, but what I remember hearing was not so much that they didn't need sponsorship, or could be self sponsored, but rather Ron didn't want to alter (downward) the "McLaren F1 Advertising Rate Card" as the team started to slide backwards down the grid. That he felt the team was still a premium brand and deserved premium deals (and the commensurate $ per square inch on the car). So as he wouldn't drop his price sponsors disappeared.

I can see his point to a degree. You don't want to devalue your brand by appearing desperate as it also makes it harder to increase rates at a later date when you eventually bounce back. But at some point... the money dries up and the emperor has no clothes.

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Old 24 Jul 2017, 16:09 (Ref:3753979)   #612
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he should try to swap Alonso and someone like Scott Dixon from IndyCar for next year and create attention
Not in a million years.

Scott Dixon is 37 years old now, would be both a rookie ?*nd the oldest driver in the field bar Raikkonen and has abolutely nothing to gain.
Scott is worth more than that.
He'll compete in Indycar for a few more seasons and win some more races (and maybe titles)
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 17:18 (Ref:3754001)   #613
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Oh dear!! The extent the faithful would go to!

Zak Brown must be fighting off all the sponsorship deals being thrown at him with all this "exposure" McLaren are getting. One could only dream of this type of exposure. McLaren should be so lucky!! And grateful!
It is a bad press exposure isn't it? Point being there are more articles and mentions for McLaren Honda than Williams or Renault. It's a developing story and some come for the laughs, some come for the brutal burial and others come to hope for the improvement because it could go either.

And as far as the sponsorship goes McLaren is still the 4th best paid team on the grid when it comes to sponsors. I think they get three times more money than Williams and two times more than Renault.
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 18:12 (Ref:3754014)   #614
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Not in a million years.

Scott Dixon is 37 years old now, would be both a rookie *nd the oldest driver in the field bar Raikkonen and has abolutely nothing to gain.
Scott is worth more than that.
He'll compete in Indycar for a few more seasons and win some more races (and maybe titles)
Doesn't have to be Dixon. Rossi wpuld be a good fit. Just thinking of cross promotional opportunities and keeping alonso happy and with the team. If penske ran Honda's, I would throw out the name castroneves. Its not like whoever goes to f1 has to be super competitive, just work on developing the car and get a shot at the pinnacle series. Better an old rookie than a ride buyer, imo, which there are a few of in f1.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 00:35 (Ref:3754125)   #615
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Doesn't have to be Dixon. Rossi wpuld be a good fit. Just thinking of cross promotional opportunities and keeping alonso happy and with the team. If penske ran Honda's, I would throw out the name castroneves. Its not like whoever goes to f1 has to be super competitive, just work on developing the car and get a shot at the pinnacle series. Better an old rookie than a ride buyer, imo, which there are a few of in f1.
If I was running Rossi and got Alonso, I would be ecstatic.
If I was running Fred and got Rossi, I would resign.

About the only thing Rossi has done was luck into an Indy 500 win, Pastor would be a better bet by far!
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 01:36 (Ref:3754133)   #616
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Indycar stalwarts aren't on any F1 radar.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 05:08 (Ref:3754155)   #617
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If I was running Rossi and got Alonso, I would be ecstatic.
If I was running Fred and got Rossi, I would resign.

About the only thing Rossi has done was luck into an Indy 500 win, Pastor would be a better bet by far!
If runninf Rossi or some other honda driver from IndyCar for a year allowed McLaren to keep Alonso in their employ, I'd be ecstatic to go from Alonso to Rossi for a year as a marketing exercise during a development year.

I mean, I know it's not gonna happen, but it's something that could drum up some exposure or interest and distract from mclarens car being a likely dog nexr year.
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 06:24 (Ref:3754165)   #618
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This was speculated a few pages back in this thread. Most likely zero chance under current engine regulations. But who knows with the next set of regulations (2021) which will likely drop the MGU-H and maybe other requirements for a much simpler specification. All of which potentially allows non-manufactures to be competitive. The solutions today are too costly for those without deep pockets to do the required R&D. With this set of regulations, history has also shown that deep pockets and hard work do not guaranteed competitiveness.

Richard
They wouldn't be a bad resource to review the Honda test processes and evaluate and calibrate the technical equipment that seems out of whack right now
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Old 25 Jul 2017, 07:07 (Ref:3754171)   #619
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Indycar stalwarts aren't on any F1 radar.
Exactly. As if.

IndyCar is usually for the drivers that F1 rejected or weren't good enough.





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Old 26 Jul 2017, 11:53 (Ref:3754475)   #620
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Hopefully McLaren can help find a partner to bring back the Ilmor-McLaren magic for a 2021 engine......just need a manufacturer to badge it......JLR/Ford/GM/VW as a punt....or perhaps an asian OEM???....or just get a fizzy-pop energy drink maker to badge it.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/130922/ilmor-seeking-partner-for-2021-f1-engine
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Old 26 Jul 2017, 13:29 (Ref:3754491)   #621
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It's not just a matter of someone badging it, it's someone ponying up serious cash to fund it. But it was interesting what Ilien was saying about it not needing to be a car manufacturer. A McLaren-Apple? A McLaren-Dell?
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Old 26 Jul 2017, 14:27 (Ref:3754498)   #622
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It's not just a matter of someone badging it, it's someone ponying up serious cash to fund it. But it was interesting what Ilien was saying about it not needing to be a car manufacturer. A McLaren-Apple? A McLaren-Dell?
yes, thats the rather obvious elephant in the room.......in F1 Sponsors are called "partners".....so in other words whos got 50-100 million to splash on an F1 engine program?.....probably not a vehicle manufacturer......but probably someone like Apple/Monster-energy/TAG/Rebellion/ORIS/HAAS/Mobil/Shell......probably someone non-automotive
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 14:35 (Ref:3754726)   #623
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Sauber-Honda Deal Off
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 14:46 (Ref:3754730)   #624
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McLaren will stick with Honda next year, in the desperate hope that the Japanese eventually get it right and close the gap. Will Honda still be in F1 in 2021? I'm less sure. Will McLaren..?
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Old 27 Jul 2017, 14:50 (Ref:3754731)   #625
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I'm not surprised. What was more surprising was Sauber putting together a deal with Honda in the first place, considering the issues with the PU.
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Can Button Compete with the Likes of Kimi And Alonso marzF1rocks Formula One 22 31 Mar 2006 11:59
Kimi Raikkonen and McLaren - can they continue their current form? Yoong Montoya Formula One 23 1 May 2003 00:26
Can the Pilbeam compete with the Reynard and the MG Lola? H16 Sportscar & GT Racing 8 27 Jan 2003 16:51


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