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23 May 2011, 17:09 (Ref:2884590) | #26 | |
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FT200 I would think
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24 May 2011, 08:56 (Ref:2885020) | #27 | ||
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Isn't there an FIA rule which allows any atlantic car to be converted to f2 spec? Also an FIA rule which allows iron block BDG's to use alloy blocks which is how 72 cars can do so.
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24 May 2011, 10:23 (Ref:2885068) | #28 | |
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I kind of think that's exactly what I wouldn't want to see. Building an Atlantic to F2 spec, or vice versa, should be dependent on a car to that specification running in period in an International event. That would rule out the alloy block, however attractive the prospect. Correct period specification for chassis, bodywork, engine, transmission, wings and wheels is, I believe, what the HSCC want. Not a field which includes an assortment of mongrels based on their owner's rather imaginative interpretation of what might be correct. That's exactly what happened with the 2-litre sportscars. T212 Lolas with alloy-block BDG's, stretched chassis, running 40mm ground clearance. Nothing like this ever ran in period! It's not about being snobbish or pedantic. It's about being period-correct.
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24 May 2011, 11:01 (Ref:2885090) | #29 | ||
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I agree with you and think the FIA ruling is wrong but as it stands it permits the type of cars you have decribed in your last post to be created. You could take your original query a step further and make it car specific, preventing countless replications of one off cars being made because its convenient within the current rules.
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24 May 2011, 11:49 (Ref:2885119) | #30 | |
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James, could you show me where these rules are? I was informed at Silverstone that "the FIA now allow two plane wings in place of an original single plane" - that was news to the FIA! I suspect that people are taking parts of other rules and applying them to suit their own ends, probably no real surprise there.
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24 May 2011, 12:41 (Ref:2885152) | #31 | ||
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Below is verbatim from Appendix K re BDG
- Ford BDG iron blocks may be replaced with aluminium blocks to the period specification, in cars of period H. Atlantic conversions were permitted when HF2 was originally set up weren't they? Lotus 69 Atlantic/March 71B with injected BDA etc. I could be wrong but I thought that was an FIA dispensation that still applies hence 77B with BDG or RT1 BDG for example or do they qualify under the 1 car raced in that config once rule.. |
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24 May 2011, 13:26 (Ref:2885181) | #32 | |
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The key phrase in the first sentence is "period specification", and the Atlantic/Formula B to F2 swap was for 1600 F2 only and as far as I know remains so. As for the Ralt with a BDG one existed (I know, I restored it for the man who still owns it today!) and the March 77B BDG would appear to be the result of someone's overheated imagination. The bottom line is the car raced today should be a "snapshot" of that car at some point in its lifespan, not a menu of all the parts that may have been available at some time or other. Under FIA rules that car's "snapshot" may be replicated, whether that is a good or a bad thing is a topic for another thread. I would also point out that the resulting car should/must run to the rules in force of the latest period item on the car, so a March 722 modified to a 772P specification would run to the wing and nose overhang and total weight rules of a 77 car, for example.
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24 May 2011, 21:58 (Ref:2885462) | #33 | ||
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I guess the BDG thing is confusing, probably because so much of the development was carried out by tuners other than Cosworth. As I understand it Brian Hart designed and cast the first alloy blocks in 1972 finding their way into RS1600's that same year. It was a Brian Hart/Ford project, the blocks being avaliable from Ford Rallye Sport dealers not Cosworth. Looking through the results on F2 register there are several 1975cc BDA's in 1972 (effectively BDG's). It wasn't until later when Cosworth made their 1975cc engine that they designated it BDG.
Check out "Cosworth the search for power" by Graham Robson |
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25 May 2011, 06:48 (Ref:2885571) | #34 | |
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James and guess what ,a BT38 was one of first cars to use one !!!!!!
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25 May 2011, 07:27 (Ref:2885582) | #35 | ||
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25 May 2011, 16:35 (Ref:2885769) | #36 | ||
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25 May 2011, 18:19 (Ref:2885810) | #37 | |||
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Thruxton he used an ex Coulon March 742. After the group shunt at the chicane he bought the prototype 75B from March and used that with BDG for the next year and a bit, though I think it was a BDX from Swindon, not a BDG to be precise. The car kept the plate off the 742 for carnet purposes, but there is correspondence and evidence from March to show which 75B was used. So under British rules you could get away with a 2.0 BD in a 75B Atlantic, or indeed a BMW in a 77B [since de Dryver's car actually was off the 77B production run, and the basis of the first 772P also was] regardless of what the car you have actually ran. I can only think of one 74B that might have run something bigger than a BDD in period and that's Chris Cramer's hillclimb car in 1974/5. Stretton's 742 is the ex Laffite car, so ran a BMW in period. But I think the 742 ran almost anything in period anyway - depending on your definition of period. Carlo Giorgio's car seemed to have been tried with every variety of engine except a Renault, and if that fails, in 1976 Val Musetti ran both a 73B and a 742 bitsa, made out of an old development tub, with Swindon engines. [Paradoxically, the bitsa has now been "restored" to take a BMW] |
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25 May 2011, 18:34 (Ref:2885813) | #38 | |||
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However, Giorgio's engines in detail Pinto all 1974, and 1975 to July "BDA" appears Mugello 17 July 75 and used to end of season Amaroli, first appears Vallelunga 9 May 1976, and this is Amaroli's own 6 cylinder engine, not their tuning of a BDA BMW entered with one at Hockenheim, 17 April 1977 and I have the entry list somewhere... however that may have been purely aspirational as a Hart 420R, then shows up in the car at Vallelunga 15 May 1977. This gets Giorgio into more races in 1977 than a 742 really had a right to. It stays in the car for 1978. |
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25 May 2011, 19:04 (Ref:2885823) | #39 | |
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Chris Townsend's posts are most interesting.
The simple word 'carnet', when fully considered, has made some aspects of the Historic racing scene so much more obscure than it might have been. |
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25 May 2011, 19:07 (Ref:2885825) | #40 | ||
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What do you think the engine builders are up to? We can have a good idea what a Cosworth spec BDG was like but there's no way we can be sure of the exact spec of a Hart/Felday/Smith 1975cc BDA. Head studs? All the same with exception of BDT, 10mm plugs? Sure. Cosworth would have taken a planned measured approach to the development of the BD series but there were plenty of others that just got stuck in with variying degrees of success. I may be wrong but providing the engine is still a BD and has the correct bore and stroke there's little you could do now that wouldn't have been done in period. F2 was big business I think if anything more radical stuff was tried back then.
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26 May 2011, 09:52 (Ref:2886063) | #41 | ||
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26 May 2011, 23:22 (Ref:2886477) | #42 | |||
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There seems to plenty of interest in F2 at the moment, the series would appear to be pretty healthy, I'm sure your March would be most welcome! |
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27 May 2011, 10:11 (Ref:2886619) | #43 | ||
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James, my old mate Kim Mather ran a 'bitza 782' in period with BDG. He did AFX in late 79 with it, plus the August Donny Euro F2 race. It was a mix of his 772P with bits of 783 also built in.
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28 May 2011, 19:47 (Ref:2887230) | #44 | ||
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Historic F2 is pre '79 Dan, don't think the owner could find any evidence of one with BDG in before then. Isn't there an ex Kim Mather Chevron B35? out there at the moment?
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29 May 2011, 03:40 (Ref:2887324) | #45 | |
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I think the critcal point is WHEN did the ALLOY BLOCK BDG First appear in F2 ???? and in what chassis were they fitted in PRE 79. ?????
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30 May 2011, 19:34 (Ref:2888369) | #46 | ||
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Did Graham Eden's Ralt RT1, a 1977 car, not have an alloy block BDG when driven in the British series of 77 and 78 by Tony Rouff and Mike Wilds?
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31 May 2011, 13:19 (Ref:2888746) | #47 | ||
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It did Chris have a BDG, no idea what it was made out of... I don't think that car ever did a 'real' F2 race though did it? Does G8/AFX count for HSCC purposes?
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31 May 2011, 14:03 (Ref:2888777) | #48 | ||
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The first time one appeared was actually at the Brazilian Torneio at the end of 1972. Both Hart and RES had 1990cc alloy engines present and Pace won a race with the Hart unit. However, its homologation had been turned down by the FIA only a few weeks earlier so I don't quite understand how it was suddenly legal.
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1 Jun 2011, 20:28 (Ref:2889610) | #49 | ||
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It was entered for Donington 1977 (race #29), that's good enough for me, I'm screwing one into the back of an RT1 this evening!
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2 Jun 2011, 08:26 (Ref:2889809) | #50 | |||
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