[Team] Red Bull: Unbullievable

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by steve_r

I'd love this forum to be a place where people are allowed to post their opinions or thoughts without being subject to such insults. Twitter this is not.

It was no insult.

It was a good-humoured response to his considered post. I believe some of it to be incorrect, but it was a good post nonetheless.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

It was a good-humoured response to his considered post. I believe some of it to be incorrect, but it was a good post nonetheless.

But - at this point, all anyone else reading the thread has are the comments of two forum posters - neither of which (as far as I am aware) with any proven authority.

So to make a comment such as 'a great new novel' and 'on the fiction shelves' can come across as dismissive and insulting.

If you can provide some evidence of why the post is 'fiction' it would (I think) help everyone else to understand what is not accurate in the post. How else are people expected to separate scuttlebutt from reality?

[dsg]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Nothing odd about it at all. If Daniel thinks he's going to be back driving a Red Bull in GPs then I fear he's deluded. I wasn't actually referring to the cost in $$$....

What cost? I don't know what Daniel is thinking and from my distant observation I get the impression he doesn't either. I also believe unless something miraculous happens, the McLaren was his last ever F1 drive.

However, if he does gain the motivation to drive again then wouldn't you think being in the paddock, around the circus and involved with an F1 team is likely better than sitting on his couch in Monaco, Texas, Perth or wherever? It is also extremely common for former drivers to remain involved in the sport.

This is why I thought it was odd.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

But - at this point, all anyone else reading the thread has are the comments of two forum posters - neither of which (as far as I am aware) with any proven authority.

So to make a comment such as 'a great new novel' and 'on the fiction shelves' can come across as dismissive and insulting.

If you can provide some evidence of why the post is 'fiction' it would (I think) help everyone else to understand what is not accurate in the post. How else are people expected to separate scuttlebutt from reality?

C'mon it was light hearted.. this may be the Aussie in me but let's just all chill out

[numbnuts]

Just my opinion but there seems to be unrest between max and redbull regarding monaco quali where perez spun under certain circumstances .
I believe this is the tip of a large and ugly iceberg for the whole of f1 .
The late and unprecedented appointment of dr seems to me a threat to max and motivation to keep his mouth shut .
Flame away , its just my take .

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

But - at this point, all anyone else reading the thread has are the comments of two forum posters - neither of which (as far as I am aware) with any proven authority.

So to make a comment such as 'a great new novel' and 'on the fiction shelves' can come across as dismissive and insulting.

If you can provide some evidence of why the post is 'fiction' it would (I think) help everyone else to understand what is not accurate in the post. How else are people expected to separate scuttlebutt from reality?

Leave it CR.
It is not a problem.
Just remember the comment Perez made in Brazil.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Just remember the comment Perez made in Brazil.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by dsg

What cost? I don't know what Daniel is thinking and from my distant observation I get the impression he doesn't either. I also believe unless something miraculous happens, the McLaren was his last ever F1 drive.

However, if he does gain the motivation to drive again then wouldn't you think being in the paddock, around the circus and involved with an F1 team is likely better than sitting on his couch in Monaco, Texas, Perth or wherever? It is also extremely common for former drivers to remain involved in the sport.

This is why I thought it was odd.

Perhaps I just believe there is racing life beyond F1 and if you're racing life in F1 is probably over, is it not better to move on?

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

If you can provide some evidence of why the post is 'fiction' it would (I think) help everyone else to understand what is not accurate in the post.

If you really are interested, I would start with the point that he since he first chose to leave Red Bill every single contract decision DR has made has been about money. He even instructed his manager to go get the most money. And then didn’t want to pay him what was agreed.

Don’t assume I dislike DR for that as I don’t blame him for wanting to be paid the most, but to suggest otherwise is incorrect. Why do we think he chose to reject the Haas desire to sign him for 2023? Money.

He got paid a lot to drive. Now he’s being paid a lot to not drive. Good luck to him.

This desire to see everything in black/white/factual/reported and accredited somewhere really doesn’t help anyone understand the actual goings on!

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by peebee2

This desire to see everything in black/white/factual/reported and accredited somewhere really doesn’t help anyone understand the actual goings on!

Yeah, but when sources are wholly undisclosed, it's inevitable that the questions are asked.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by peebee2

..........................This desire to see everything in black/white/factual/reported and accredited somewhere really doesn’t help anyone understand the actual goings on!

But surely if it happened it's factual and can be accredited, otherwise it's smoke and mirrors.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

If you really are interested, I would start with the point that he since he first chose to leave Red Bill every single contract decision DR has made has been about money.

But that is not what is reported:

2017 [Laurence Edmondson] - "Daniel Ricciardo will prioritise car performance above all else when it comes to negotiating his next contract in Formula One"

2017 [Ricciardo] - "I know what I want, and the performance side is more important than ticking the money box, if you like. Having the chance to be able to fight for something really meaningful -- races, championships -- that's the absolute priority. It's not even close"

2019 [Ricciardo] - "So next year, what would I need to see [from Renault]? Obviously improvements — not just from one position to the next, but solid improvements that actually we could realistically fight for a podium at some point next year. That would be very encouraging and motivating for everyone."

2020 [Ricciardo] - "I’ll be honest, there wasn’t one deciding factor. [...] It was quite clear to most that McLaren was the team which made the biggest step out of all [last year]. That was really encouraging for them, and that’s really all you can base it on. And then, the pitch for the future; obviously they are switching power units and all that."

2022 [Riccirado] - "I certainly felt these [emotions] the last couple of years, going through the highs and lows, and then with Covid, not seeing friends and family as often. So it all kind of just builds up to a point where I was like 'Okay, maybe it's best to just get a few things back in my life' – a bit more family time, bit more friends, and a bit more time for myself as well."


Maybe DR's contract decisions are not quite as black and white about money as you'd like to believe?

[S griffin]

It's nice to know Red Bull still find Danny valuable, so good on them bringing him in as reserve driver. It shows that he is at least wanted in some capacity in F1

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

But that is not what is reported:

2017 [Laurence Edmondson] - "Daniel Ricciardo will prioritise car performance above all else when it comes to negotiating his next contract in Formula One"

2017 [Ricciardo] - "I know what I want, and the performance side is more important than ticking the money box, if you like. Having the chance to be able to fight for something really meaningful -- races, championships -- that's the absolute priority. It's not even close"

2019 [Ricciardo] - "So next year, what would I need to see [from Renault]? Obviously improvements — not just from one position to the next, but solid improvements that actually we could realistically fight for a podium at some point next year. That would be very encouraging and motivating for everyone."

2020 [Ricciardo] - "I’ll be honest, there wasn’t one deciding factor. [...] It was quite clear to most that McLaren was the team which made the biggest step out of all [last year]. That was really encouraging for them, and that’s really all you can base it on. And then, the pitch for the future; obviously they are switching power units and all that."

2022 [Riccirado] - "I certainly felt these [emotions] the last couple of years, going through the highs and lows, and then with Covid, not seeing friends and family as often. So it all kind of just builds up to a point where I was like 'Okay, maybe it's best to just get a few things back in my life' – a bit more family time, bit more friends, and a bit more time for myself as well."


Maybe DR's contract decisions are not quite as black and white about money as you'd like to believe?

This is a waste of time. You asked me to back up my point and, with some reluctance, I did that for you.

You then hit me with a load of regurgitated press releases and notes.

In almost four decades in the paddock I can't think of too many times that I've read a press release which told the real and complete truth.

Do you really think a driver would front up to his tame press bod and tell them that money is the most important thing he is looking for? I've seen plenty of naivety on here but that would be quite something.

Both of the last two teams he has driven for have been persuaded to pay top, top dollar and have been left ruing that the performances they got were not what they invested for. Now it pays more for 2023 not to race than it does to race. Hardly "the performance side is more important than ticking the money box" is it?

If you come back with some more third-hand press comment I hope I don't see it. Doubtless you'd take offence if I criticised keyboard warriors so I will try hard not to.

[peterelise]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Both of the last two teams he has driven for have been persuaded to pay top, top dollar and have been left ruing that the performances they got were not what they invested for.

I must have watched a different F1 during the 2 years of DRic at Renault. He beat Hulkenberg convincingly and absolutely destroyed Ocon. Presumably McLaren also thought he did ok while at Renault and hence offered him a big contract to move and from memory Renault were very disappointed to lose him.

Why do people keep saying he was awful while at Renault?

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by peterelise

I must have watched a different F1 during the 2 years of DRic at Renault. He beat Hulkenberg convincingly and absolutely destroyed Ocon. Presumably McLaren also thought he did ok while at Renault and hence offered him a big contract to move and from memory Renault were very disappointed to lose him.

Why do people keep saying he was awful while at Renault?

I don’t know about others but I didn’t say he was awful at Renault at all. I said they didn’t think they got the level of performance commensurate with what they paid for. Hence part of the reason they didn’t want him back for ‘23.

[Born Racer]

Yeah, he seemed very good at Renault. Maybe Lando Norris is just that good. Curiously, his karting results didn't seem stellar initially. He certainly took his time. In 2011, something clicked, though.

[S griffin]

I first noticed him in British F3. Even if the opposition could have been better, I was thinking he could go a long way. His performances in FR 3.5 also impressed me.

You're right he did really well at Renault, but his performances at McLaren will remain a mystery. He's still their most recent winner though!

[peterelise]

I have previously thought that Daniel’s time at McLaren is a legitimate mystery after everything that went before. Being a huge fan of his, I have always searched for reasons for the sub par performances but I am wondering now if the answer isn’t simply that Lando is exceptional and simply a good bit better than Daniel and that fact was amplified by the car having peculiar characteristics. On top of that, I think it is well known that mental confidence has a huge impact on performance and Daniel’s will have taken a beating which will have further exacerbated the issue.

I also found it hard to come to the conclusion that Lando was that good because Sainz had the better of him when they were team mates but I am now of the view that Lando has probably developed quite a bit with each year of learning so lining him up with Sainz in a McLaren (in 2023) may well yield a different result.

Time will tell whether Lando really is that type of talent (and whether Daniel will get a chance to return after a reset).

[peterelise]

Originally Posted by peebee2

I don’t know about others but I didn’t say he was awful at Renault at all. I said they didn’t think they got the level of performance commensurate with what they paid for. Hence part of the reason they didn’t want him back for ‘23.

I could be wrong, but I doubt that Renault’s lack of interest in Daniel was because they weren’t happy with what he did in 2019 and 2020 having regard to what they paid him. I’m pretty sure they were extremely disappointed to lose him and one wonders how they would rate the return on compensation they got from Alonso given his results weren’t as good as what Daniel gave them. And of course they could have had Daniel in 2023 for a whole lot less if they wanted him.

In my view it is more likely a combination of the disappointing results at McLaren together with a big helping of “f*** you for leaving us the way you did”.

I would be interested if there really is a view that they didn’t rate him after 2019/20.

[S griffin]

It'll be interesting to see if Piastri can live with Norris this coming season. Maybe we will have more answers then.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by peterelise

I would be interested if there really is a view that they didn’t rate him after 2019/20.

Would you really, or would you just come back and say you can’t see it?

I don’t think they “didn’t rate him” but what might help is to realise that lack of ultimate performance, not working hard enough and not putting the absolute hours and effort in and also thinking the grass might be greener are all the same side of the coin.

Despite his clear faults Alonso doesn’t have ALL of these traits.

[peterelise]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Would you really, or would you just come back and say you can’t see it?

I don’t think they “didn’t rate him” but what might help is to realise that lack of ultimate performance, not working hard enough and not putting the absolute hours and effort in and also thinking the grass might be greener are all the same side of the coin.

Despite his clear faults Alonso doesn’t have ALL of these traits.

Yes I would really be interested to know if Renault were not happy with his efforts/performance after 2020. He clearly thought the grass was greener elsewhere and at face value McLaren did look like a team with a brighter future than Renault so at the time I could see why he chose to leave Renault.

I am also interested that you hint Daniel didn’t put in the effort at Renault. Is that a widely held view? Certainly from afar McLaren seem to be happy that Daniel tried hard enough to find performance and he wasn’t sacked for lack of effort. Indeed they seem to have made a point that they were happy with his efforts (just not the outcomes).

[Skam85]

Danny Ricc's 2020 Renault season was almost as good as any of his other seasons in F1

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Danny Ricc's 2020 Renault season was almost as good as any of his other seasons in F1

Yes, he was definitely on his game that season. Top 5 driver of the season