The merged Merger thread (again !!)

[Fogelhund]

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../60221006/1001

Not much to say about this, other than a merger can only be positive. Will it happen, who knows, but it is better to know what is happening, than not.

[macdaddy]

Okay. Here's the deal...

Many times over the past we've had threads very similar to this one. And every single time they had quickly degraded to mud-slinging matches. Therefore we've been closing them before they really get a chance to begin.

However, nobody can argue that the topic isn't worthy of discussion.

Marcus and I have decided that we've got a mighty-fine group of members here, and we're going to allow this thread to continue. But keep in mind that it's going to be under a very watchful eye. There will be no character-assasinations. If you don't like TG or KK, fine. That's your right. But defammation will not be tolerated. Don't bother bashing one series or the other.

Consider this post as your unofficial warning. Anything from here-on-in will be dealt with quickly. And if this thread degrades like the others have it will be closed, and no others will be allowed until there is an official press release about unification.

[/mod-hat]

[drdisque]

I like the statement that they're focusing on "what we have in common"

It makes me think that if something DOES happen, that it will be a new series founded on the common points that they can agree on as the core of the series rather than one series merging into the other.

We ARE dealing with intelligent guys here, they wouldn't get where they are by being stupid, they know what they have to do, but they also realize that there's no reason to be hasty or fight about it. Like KK said, if you leave them alone then it will happen a lot faster than if the media keeps pestering them for answers to questions they haven't even discussed yet.

[Tim Northcutt]

Is it May already????

That is usually when stories like this get "leaked"

(Just Kidding, gang)

I hope that they do keep talking...

and I agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Kalkhoven....

Any discussions of this nature should not be done through the media or published in the media...all that does is gum up the works.

If it can be sorted out, let the principals involved do it on their own time and under their own agreed-upon terms....

[Fogelhund]

Let's put away the politics, and the dislike of people, teams, and series for a bit.

Here is a reality.

The IRL currently has the following teams that have been somewhat competitive; Andretti Green, Fernadez Racing, Ganassi Racing, Marlboro Team Penske, Rahal Letterman.

Then the drivers; Wheldon, Kanaan, Hornish, Franchitti, Sharp, Castroneves, Carpentie, Dixon, Enge, Briscoe...

Champcar's teams; Forsythe, Newman Haas, Ru Sport, PKV and so on....

Then Champcar's drivers; Bourdais, Tracy, Servia, Glock, Wilson, Allmendinger, Tagliani, Dominguez, Da Matta, Ranger, Weirdheim, Junqueira... .and so on...

Just think about all of these teams, and drivers on the same grid, for any race that you can think about. Tell me that isn't something you wouldn't want to see?

This grid at the Glen, or Road America, or Indy... think about that. As a long term fan, who has slowly become less interested, I think this would be great, and I absolutely would consider going to more races again.

Of course the sponsors and manufacturers are pushing/begging for this. Honda doesn't want to be racing against themselves, and with a new chassis coming on line, no series would have any advantage over the other. It just makes perfect sense, and is the perfect time to do so. I hope that all of those people who are passionate about their series, can put aside their feelings, and understand that this is what is best for what they love, and accept the others back. Working together, Open Wheel can really move forward much faster, than in working apart.

While I hold no false hopes that this time it will happen now, I do understand that it has to happen somehow, at some point.. this just can't go on the way it has, someone, or both continue to lose.

[Tim Northcutt]

I agree with you, Fogelhund....

I would add Panther to that list as well....they would be there...and they are quite competitive....

The politics of the whole thing has bothered me for a long time....

and with the players (teams and drivers) you have named in that partial list, open-wheel racing would put on one of the best (if not the best) racing shows in the world.....

I like watching both of them now...even though they are separate...

But I would love to see all of them on one grid in one unified series.

[climb]

My view is that just a talk as far as now is a bit slow of a pace to get the merge done by the start of 2007 season. Too many things must be done, too many problems solved.

If significant further steps are not accomplished in a very short time, the whole perspective is not realistic

[rustyfan]

One of the toughest issues to solve would most likely be to try and come up with a unified schedule. How to decide which tracks to drop and which to keep? Do you go solely after how much money the event has made, or do you try to make it reasonably diverse?

For obvious reasons the number of ovals would be cut dramatically, but I dearly hope there would be room to keep at least some of the high-banked ones - Texas and Homestead in particular. While a non-oval Watkins Glen is another track dear to me which hopefully would make the cut.

In any case, imagine a grid at Indianapolis consisting of the following:

A.J. Allmendinger (RuSPORT)
Marco Andretti (Andretti-Green Racing)
Michael Andretti (Andretti-Green Racing)
Sebastien Bourdais (Newman-Haas Racing)
Ed Carpenter (Vision Racing)
Helio Castroneves (Penske Racing)
Eddie Cheever (Team Cheever)
Paul Dana (Rahal-Letterman Racing)
Scott Dixon (Ganassi Racing)
Mario Dominguez (Forsythe Racing)
Dario Franchitti (Andretti-Green Racing)
Felipe Giaffone (Foyt Racing)
Bryan Herta (Andretti-Green Racing)
Sam Hornish Jr. (Penske Racing)
Bruno Junqueira (Newman-Haas Racing)
Tony Kanaan (Andretti-Green Racing)
Buddy Lazier (Dreyer & Reinbold Racing)
Katherine Legge (PKV Racing)
Kosuke Matsuura (Super Aguri / Fernandez Racing)
Vitor Meira (Panther Racing)
Danica Patrick (Rahal-Letterman Racing)
Buddy Rice (Rahal-Letterman Racing)
Tomas Scheckter (Vision Racing)
Scott Sharp (Super Aguri / Fernandez Racing)
Paul Tracy (Forsythe Racing)
Dan Wheldon (Ganassi Racing)
Justin Wilson (RuSPORT)

Disclaimer! I must admit I'm not fully up to speed on the confirmed Champ Car drivers for this years' season, hence the somewhat limited number of Champ Car drivers included in the list. In other words, it's not meant at a jab at Champ Car in any way, and if someone could update the list further with additional drivers fully confirmed for this season it would be great

Obviously the list wouldn't look the same if we would get a unified series within the next few years, but let's not bother about that and instead imagine how bloody awesome it could be. And, heck, it wouldn't necessarily be just at Indy either! Remove Michael Andretti and, possibly, Eddie Cheever and you'd have the same cars entering all races!



Sigh... no harm in dreaming, right?

[Dutton]

Duplicate of post in the Champcar forum version of this thread

*********

IRL events I followed reasonably closely following the split, but it was CART that I was interested in. I would faithfully follow it: until, that is, I started drifting away from it in the 2001 season. The 2002-2005 seasons have been particualry barren, with IRL at this point nearly dropping entirely off of the radar (but not quite).

During this period (2002-2005) I have watched some events, both IRL and CART/ChampCar, but not very many: approximately 4/5 CART/ChampCar and 1/2 IRL races, and, sadly, with no "fire" involved (which there was back in the day).

This year, I have resolved to stop being so lazy (especially as I am in Canada now). So, as a result, I am going to watch every single round of IRL and Champcar.

This, by now, immensely ignorant individual, with regards ChampCar/IRL, would LOVE to see unification. An already scarce, scattered audience would be much better served without such conflicting interests and forces.

I am now having to do some "studying" to get myself somewhat up to speed in preparation for the upcoming season.

[climb]

Today Autosport.com reports of C-C boss denying the merger
http://www.autosport.com/subs/login....=news&id=49708

I cannot read the entire article, if someone can, pehaps he can find something interesting

[macdaddy]

George cited long-term agreements between the IRL and its partners as one of the reasons possibly blocking a deal with Champ Car.

Story.

[climb]

Summing KK and TG latest declaratons the merger seems to be gone

[okeefe]

Originally Posted by climb

My view is that just a talk as far as now is a bit slow of a pace to get the merge done by the start of 2007 season. Too many things must be done, too many problems solved.

If significant further steps are not accomplished in a very short time, the whole perspective is not realistic

I tend to think that both business men know full well what the situation between them will be for 2007 as we sit here today - I think they would need to know that in order to make some of the decisions they are each making in their own individual series for 2006. Maybe each one is now enjoying their each respective last year of being on their own and putting in place what they want to carry through into a time when they would otherwise need to consult each other more about it. Maybe it's propaganda - so when they DO get together in the end - we see them more as heros for it. I think if they wanted no one to know about their meetings and discussions - it would have been kept better under wraps. Maybe they even want NASCAR fans to catch wind of this and see something good coming and start to tune in in 2006 just in case something big occurs in 2007! They have the common interest of trying to attract more fans to open wheel. Wasn't it Richard Nixon who said "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"? Maybe from this "leak" they will both get better deals now than ever before in terms of their business dealings because all will think something "big" is on the verge. ah, triangular diplomacy - exciting times in the sport, isn't it?

[D.R.T.]

The old saying, that if you have to deny something, its really there. As if there was nothing to deny, why would you deny it.

[pink69]

Its all still rumours but with both series now on single engine supplier and a single chassis designer for CCWS and two in IRL, the gap between the two has closed massively.

[Bluewolf]

Although unification overall would be probably be the best thing, I have some mixed feelings in that -- now we can follow both series with a total of what -- 30 or more races combined? Not to mention the fact that if these series unify and run a field of 24 to 28 cars per race {excluding the 500 of course} -- a lot of good drivers, owners, mechanics, etc. are going to be out of work in open wheeled racing. So ---- all things being equal -- If you have a driver you root for both series - you might be hoping they stay separate.

[D.R.T.]

Not if you have concerns about the future of OW racing in America.

[gttouring]

Cosworth could easily pick up the extra teams, honda might dust off their turbo V8's, they all should be making comprable power, as the 3 litre v8's well maybe at the speedway to keep the power down?
but a union- like every year since this disaster could only benefit everyone, except barnhart and george who would be part of a controlling owner group instead of the head honchos....

[okeefe]

Surely in this age of legal wizardry there would be a way that these two sides could enjoy the benefits of being united on some common issues, but also remain independent on some unique issues. Kind of like a "limited partnership" - some things are shared and common to both; some things are not and are unique to each. I think this would be the way to go. That way, no one has to lose the "war" before some type of "treaty" is signed; and it also justifies the fight up to this point with honour on both sides.

[drdisque]

What I see is a new series in name that is sanctioned by both the Indy Racing League and OWRS

[slicktoast]

This is bu$ine$$. The merger will take place when the bottom line looks good to both parties.

[JohnSSC]

While I agree that the long-term sponsorship deals could be impediments, it would seem that the long-term sponsors have been making noises for sometime in support of a single series. If presented with a proposal to merge, I think most sponsors would happily modify thier agreements to get in on the ground floor. If nothing else, one series would allow them to hawk their wares far more effectively to a larger audience.

As the saying goes: contracts are made to be broken. In this case, existing agreements can be modified to reflect the changing dynamic.

[climb]

well, if contracts are about bare sponsorship i can easily agree with you, but when they involve technical equipment like engines, things change because behind a contract there's always a considerable investment

[macdaddy]

Good post John. But what of promoters? Most of the tracks have multi-year agreements. In CC's case, many of those are with local governments and not easily broken. Votes have been taken in city councils as to whether-or-not streets should be repaved at the expense of the taxpayer. And although there's alot less red-tape, the same can be said for every contracted circuit - in that they'd want to be compensated for a breach-of-contract should their venue be dropped from a unified schedule.

That's why I'll eat my hat if a merger happens in 2007.

You're spot-on when you suggest that the sponsors would love it. In fact it would attract new ones, and many that have fallen aside would return. As for the manufacturers? Honda wants it. But does Ford? Cosworth would need branding. And the regs would need to be very strict.

[Bluewolf]

Excellent points Mac!