Castle Combe yellow flags and safety cars

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Zider Drinker

Wasn't this flag the brain child of BRSCC SW Centre at Combe, and trial'd there first IIRC?

I believe it did originate with BRSCC. However, it was not used as a safety car flag in the sense I'm talking about here. The way it worked was that when it was shown the cars slowed down to around 50mph & formed up behind the leader, so that the leader became, in effect, a safety car. Opinions vary on its efficacy - I saw it work very well on several occasions, other times it was less effective; I don't think every driver out there actually understood what they were supposed to do........

[devon kev]

Originally Posted by Zider Drinker

Ok, safety car today (Sunday), I'm sure Combe Marshal can confirm/add as he was Safety Car observer today. We had incidents...

DMN Saloon's or FPA Race 1, Have a feelin Safety Car was used, but cant remember which...
CC FF1600, 1 car in backwards Esses out & 1 car in forwards at Tower - Resulted in Red Flag.
CC Saloons, 2 cars in heavy at Folley. Resulted in Red Flag
FPA Race 2, 3 in at Quarry, Safety Car deployed then 1 middle of track minus a wheel at Startline. Resulted in Red Flag

There was some serious and major accidents today, thanfully nothing hurt/broken except wallets and cars. It's the first time in a few years I've known red flags at Combe. And you'll have notice the 45 minute stop to clear up the CC Saloons... Be honet as AF would say we did a "bloody good job" and still finished all our race's before curfew and thats even with the Historic F3's wanting to race on slicks in the wet

SC was also deployed in Lotus on Track race 1

[CombeMarshal]

2 things, the FPA in Camp is obviously in a more dangerous place than a car on the pit straight, it only got hit due to drivers not slowing down under yellows.
Safety Cars and red Flags are not dished out willy nilly, far from it, and all marshals and officials on the day did an excellent job of getting through the day before curfue.
When the safety car is out double yellows are used in the sector of the incident, single yellow elsewhere, waved when the train is in the flag sector.

With the conditions on Sunday it must have been VERY hard for any observer to judge if a car was in a safe position or not, better to be on the side of caution.

[Marshal]

All interesting stuff, and I absolutely agree with Jim W about the safety car regs. Those he described were used by F3/GT up till a few years ago, then it was decided (as I recall) to standardise on one set of safety car regs - and they chose the wrong ones!

Still the real reson I decided to make one of my rare appearances on here was some of the worst use of yelow flags I've ever seen, at Bobbies on the Saturday. Here's the scenario. FPA car clips the tyres on the way in, breaks front suspension and parks in the corn about 5 feet in (that's about 10-15 yards off the track and pretty well out of the way for those who aren't familiar), driver hops out and is eventually persuaded to walk a bit further back into the field. Correct flag signal, stationary yellow for a lap, then a hazard board. Job done. Signal given, double waved yellow for the rest of the session (5 mins??)... Just ludicrous, what have you got left to warn drivers if something serious happened, like a car on (or in fact anywhere near) the track. And as there was nothing there, the drivers ignored the flags, and frankly I couldn't blame them. If we as a whole don't stop overusing yellows, no driver is going to take a blind bit of notice of them, and people are going to get badly hurt.

[ss_collins]

Perhaps we should look to the USA for guidance on saftey cars / rolling starts / restarts they have no problems there but there seem to be constant issues in the UK. Remember the BRSCC fiasco at the Silverstone 1000km a couple of years back

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by Marshal

All interesting stuff, and I absolutely agree with Jim W about the safety car regs. Those he described were used by F3/GT up till a few years ago, then it was decided (as I recall) to standardise on one set of safety car regs - and they chose the wrong ones!

Still the real reson I decided to make one of my rare appearances on here was some of the worst use of yelow flags I've ever seen, at Bobbies on the Saturday. Here's the scenario. FPA car clips the tyres on the way in, breaks front suspension and parks in the corn about 5 feet in (that's about 10-15 yards off the track and pretty well out of the way for those who aren't familiar), driver hops out and is eventually persuaded to walk a bit further back into the field. Correct flag signal, stationary yellow for a lap, then a hazard board. Job done. Signal given, double waved yellow for the rest of the session (5 mins??)... Just ludicrous, what have you got left to warn drivers if something serious happened, like a car on (or in fact anywhere near) the track. And as there was nothing there, the drivers ignored the flags, and frankly I couldn't blame them. If we as a whole don't stop overusing yellows, no driver is going to take a blind bit of notice of them, and people are going to get badly hurt.

I Believe it was only about 3 1/2 mins, only 3 laps.
BUT the drivers were obviously not slowing for one stationary yellow, so what is you suggestion for slowing them down, why not be constructive rather than just waiting till after the event, why not say something at the time?????
It seemed like something serious would happen if they couldn't make the cars slow down (like they should)

[Dan Friel]

For clarity, the Blue Book states:

- Single waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction. There is a hazard beside or partly on the track.

- Double waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction or STOP. There is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track.

[gixxer]

Originally Posted by CombeMarshal

2 things, the FPA in Camp is obviously in a more dangerous place than a car on the pit straight, it only got hit due to drivers not slowing down under yellows.
Safety Cars and red Flags are not dished out willy nilly, far from it, and all marshals and officials on the day did an excellent job of getting through the day before curfue.
When the safety car is out double yellows are used in the sector of the incident, single yellow elsewhere, waved when the train is in the flag sector.

With the conditions on Sunday it must have been VERY hard for any observer to judge if a car was in a safe position or not, better to be on the side of caution.

Lee what i'm trying to say IS in the past we have never had a race stopped or a saftey car called for any car off at quarry as they go over the rise the cars usually go off left into the wall you should know because you had the same last year marshalling at quarry but we never had either the red flag or the SC called,it seem to me and a number of others as soon as a car went off it was panic stations something i've never seen the likes of before it cetainly never happend when you were there

[Hamness]

I am by no means an expert on the use of safety cars etc. but would the proceedings over the weekend have anything to do with the fact, as shown in the programme, that all the visiting championships had their own nominated "clerks of the course" whilst the local series maintained the usual official. Just a thought. Who actually makes the decision to launch the safety car ?

[PieMan]

Originally Posted by JimW

Just getting rid of the waved yellows "for the train" would be a start...

I thought the purpose of these waved yellows was to prevent cars that have been let by or have pitted from running into the back of the train.

IIRC there was a nasty shunt back in the Group C days involving a Mercedes at the (new) Nurburgring in very poor conditions, although this was probably in spite of waved yellows.

[M Greenslade]

Combe Marshal

As this is a public forum and I find your comments unforgivable I have sent you a PM - Balders

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Perhaps we should look to the USA for guidance on saftey cars / rolling starts / restarts

The discipline of ovals helps, of course, but they do have the best signal for safety car - two stationary yellows placed end to end making effectively one long yellow. Clear, simple, doesn't require anything extra. Better still for being called over the landline so that it goes out everywhere at once - and easy to change to waved if needed, for instance for a mechanical failure, or marshals working trackside. There shouldn't be a need for it for other reasons (a driver falling off under safety car conditions should be taking a looong holiday) and cars driving around to join the pack, while going faster than the 'train' shouldn't be at racing speed, especially not past the incident site.

[Dutch chap]

Originally Posted by M Greenslade

Combe Marshal

As this is a public forum and I find your comments unforgivable I have sent you a PM - Balders

We are all adults so I see no reason to keep something away from us. Please share your feelings. Maybe it's the right time to discuss things in the open. Maybe that's the only right way to discuss matters?

[gixxer]

Originally Posted by M Greenslade

Combe Marshal

As this is a public forum and I find your comments unforgivable I have sent you a PM - Balders

I thought i forum is where you can express you thoughts wether is unforgivable or not is up to those who run the forum to decide ,everybody is entitled to an opinion i feel i've layed mine on the table for the reasons mentioned because the antic's at the weekend really P****d me off and i'm not afraid to say it how it is maybe then people will sit up and listen and hopefully improve the next time out

[Suze]

Originally Posted by CombeMarshal

2 things, the FPA in Camp is obviously in a more dangerous place than a car on the pit straight, it only got hit due to drivers not slowing down under yellows.

I may have missed them but at the time I didn't think there were any staionary or waved yellows at the flagging post at Camp / startline when the second FPA hit the first? There were waved yellows when the marshals were moving the cars but this was afterwards.

Incidentally, the FPA was on the exit of Camp / pit straight in a place where you all too often see cars run wide, hence thinking it was a slightly strange decision for no SC for that incident.

[Nighthawk]

It’s this sort of antics that have virtually stopped me from marshalling at combe,
Shame because I like combe very much...
Since going over to the CCRC things have gone downhill in marshalling standards
For example As an Observer I am always used as an incident role ( this I don’t object to)
But when told it’s because there are more experienced Obs Out there on circuit and find that when I get to post there is an I/O in Obs position or 4 Observers together Begs for answers I think.
So quary and flags think who was in charge on the posts. Are the posts manned correctly?

[Piglet]

Having played this game for a number of years, I think the answer is that no-one is ever happy with the decision made to deploy or not deploy a safety car and to throw or not to throw a red flag.

If clerks threw a red at every point that there was some risk we'd never get through a timetable. Clearly their are lines and good decisions have to be made but often the initial decision is judged with the hindsight of knowing whether we "got away with it" or not.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Dan Friel

For clarity, the Blue Book states:

- Single waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction. There is a hazard beside or partly on the track.

- Double waved: Reduce your speed, do not overtake and be prepared to change direction or STOP. There is a hazard wholly or partly blocking the track.

Your clarification has confused me!

What you have said for single & double waved yellows is more or less a paraphrase of what the blue book says for stationary & waved yellows respectively (J 16.1 (e) & (f) )

The Blue Book doesn't, as far as I can see, make any mention of double waved yellows, although J 16.1.1 (b) does allow for an additional waved yellow at a preceding post in very serious cases.

[Ian Sowman]

On the FPA Camp/startline incident: I can't be certain, but I would be very surprised if any yellows were out at all for the stationary car, which had been there for several laps at the time of the second collision. That said, all drivers should have been aware of the hazard on the side of the circuit and driven accordingly.

[Chigley]

I believe Dan is quoting from FIA regs not the MSA Blue Book? Like you Dave I've never read or heard of the MSA condoning double waved yellows unless using that option under the safety car regs.

[gixxer]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

On the FPA Camp/startline incident: I can't be certain, but I would be very surprised if any yellows were out at all for the stationary car, which had been there for several laps at the time of the second collision. That said, all drivers should have been aware of the hazard on the side of the circuit and driven accordingly.

Which is what the sign ! is used for so all would have known there was a car there, it was the same at quarry usually the sign is displayed coming into the corner or on the marshalls post on the exit to the start of farm straight if there if there is a car parked against the wall surely its up to the drivers to take note its there?

[Dan Friel]

Double waved yellows.

Sorry.. yes being a muppet, ignore me. New baby and lack of sleep being the only excuse! Should double waves be used at all below FIA Inter level??

Cars off the track (with no marshals of drivers present) require a stationary yellow. This gets dropped to a hazard board after a lap or so. Is this not common practice?

If drivers don't react to the flags as required then marshals should continue to apply the Blue Book regs and report drivers after the session. We can't bend the rules.

[Bryan Degerlund]

Brands Hatch now has approval for vehicle snatching between 3 and 4a, and 5 and 6, and whilst the snatch is in progress double yellows are used at the appropriate post.

[Dan Friel]

Brands Hatch Snatch vehicles... Double waved yellows for moving cars stuck in the gravel I assume? If so, why would cars on the circuit have to “stop” because of that? (unless right on the edge of the track perhaps). So what happens if on the following lap a car is stranded in the middle of the track at the bottom of the hill?? What would the marshals upgrade their flags to until the red flags come? I can’t see the sense in that “rule” at all.

We all complain about drivers not responding to yellow flags but then our own misinterpretation of the rules waters their meaning down so much that they become utterly pointless. Why can’t we just use the flags as they should be used, and report any driver that disregards them? Is that so difficult?

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by Dutch chap

We are all adults so I see no reason to keep something away from us. Please share your feelings. Maybe it's the right time to discuss things in the open. Maybe that's the only right way to discuss matters?

Don't worry, some one got out of bed the wrong side.
Was accused of slagging off Observers, which everyone that knows me knows I will never do, and in my post up there I can't find where I did that.
Only said it was difficult and it's ALWAYS better the er on the side of caution.