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Old 10 Feb 2001, 00:47 (Ref:63784)   #1
Joe Fan
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Joe Fan should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridJoe Fan should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
During the broadcast of the Daytona 24 Hours on Speedvision, Jackie Stewart was interviewed and he was very critical of Earnhardt's open face helmet, stating that full faced helmets should, at a minimum, be mandatory in all of motorsports. Although I have great respect for Jackie as a driver and what he did to promote safety in F1, I feel his criticism in this regard is somewhat hypocritical and not based on all the facts. Why? First of all, open cockpit cars supply more danger to the driver via flying debris than an open faced helmet does to a driver in a closed roof car. I don't see him campaigning to close the cockpit of F1 cars. Secondly, with a open cockpit car, a full faced helmet is an absolute necessity to protect the driver from flying debris. Finally, Earnhardt believes that a full faced helmet is more dangerous because the chin area of the helmet acts like a lever that can crush the sternum and also help hyperextend and break the neck, whenever the driver is thrown forward in a crash.

Your thoughts?
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Old 10 Feb 2001, 01:42 (Ref:63798)   #2
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I fully agree with you Joe Fan.
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Old 10 Feb 2001, 02:35 (Ref:63819)   #3
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I know some drivers don't like the closed space, and the restriceted air of a full face helmet, and that is fair enough.

But I will never forget a case here in Australia at Bathurst in 1986. Peter Williamson had a rather massive crash at the end of Conrod straight, and he would have survived intact, except the fire extinguisher came loose from its mountings, and proceeded to smash his face in. Luckily he survived that one...

Also you see cases where drivers heads hit the steering wheels... without a full face helmet you are screwed. I like my face the way it is, thank you.
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Old 10 Feb 2001, 03:36 (Ref:63833)   #4
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Jackie has always been outspoken about safety after the horrid early 70s of F1 which just saw far too many deaths, and probably one of the reasons he retired so early in his career. Not to mention the death of his dear freind Francois Cevert in 73 at Jackie's last GP. Just to give you an idea where he's coming from; I think anyone living through that era watching that firsthand is gonna be perhaps over zealous in pursuit of safety

That being said, don't know much about the issue, as to which is the more legitimate claim, it's a lot like seat belts and airbags in a way. Potential to both save and harm. But I think, whether it is the safest way or not, leave it up to the drivers, it should be their choice.
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Old 10 Feb 2001, 05:34 (Ref:63846)   #5
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Originally posted by Joe Fan
Finally, Earnhardt believes that a full faced helmet is more dangerous because the chin area of the helmet acts like a lever that can crush the sternum and also help hyperextend and break the neck, whenever the driver is thrown forward in a crash.
Also, can anyone ever remember this happening, or is it simply what Dale thinks that would happen in a crash?

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Old 11 Feb 2001, 17:47 (Ref:64222)   #6
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Maybe they should speak to Colin McRae on this subject...
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Old 12 Feb 2001, 06:59 (Ref:64328)   #7
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It is not uncommon for drivers to get broken/cracked sternums in some nasty shunts but I am not sure that this is due to the chin area of the helmet hitting it or their chest hitting the steering wheel since some drivers (ie. Mark Martin) like sitting right up close it for leverage reasons.

As far as the chin area of the helmet working like a lever, it does seems plausible to me in a stock car from a physics standpoint. Stock car drivers do not sit in a small restrictive space like open wheel drivers do. This room has it advantages since it keep drivers further away from the impact but at the same time, provides more room for them to move around in the driver's compartment during a crash.

There are trade offs to wearing either helmet in a stock car. I do remember at crash at Daytona or Talladega that Earnhardt was involved a few years back and Bill Elliott's car shot up some flames that singed Earnhardt's mustache.

Personally myself, I agree with Dale. I would opt for the open faced helmet if I sat far away from the steering wheel like he does.
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Old 12 Feb 2001, 11:30 (Ref:64348)   #8
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Jackie Stewert's views, however radical and seemingly obvious they are should be listened to. He did great work in the 60's, to bring F1 and racing in general to the level it is today.

However, it is up to Dale Earnhart whether he uses one or not. In a closed cockpit car - i feel there is not problem with an open face helmet.
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Old 13 Feb 2001, 15:48 (Ref:64555)   #9
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What JYS was referring to was the chance of flying debris striking Earnhardt's face. No open wheel driver in the world would dream of racing with an open face helmet any more, even with goggles. But, being inside a closed top car does not guarantee one will not be struck by flying debris in a massive crash as we have seen.

Many Cup drivers have switched to full face helmets because of this. It also allows the team to pump cooled air into The helmet so that driver fatigue is lessened and exhaust fumes do not dull the senses.

Personally I would choose a closed helmet, but it is his choice until the rulesmakers change it.

As far as the sternum being damaged, that would seem to me that a neck collar be used or a helmet designed like current F1, CART and IRL helemets that incorporate this into the design. Drag racers probably face the single hardest decelerations repeatedly than any other racer, to the point that permanent eye damage from the eyes extruding from the sockets regularly occurs and these guys never comment on sternum problems.
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Old 14 Feb 2001, 02:56 (Ref:64654)   #10
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since only chance determines which helmet will be the most helpful in a particular crash I agree that the drivers should be able to choose which helmet they will wear. If I were a driver I would choose an open faced helmet because I can't stand anything blocking my peripheral vision. I won't even wear wrap around sunglasses.since the driver himself is the only one likely to suffer the consequences of his decision to wear a particular piece of gear the choice should be left up to the driver.
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Old 19 Feb 2001, 04:01 (Ref:65483)   #11
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With 25 years of preaching safety in racing, I agree completely with JYS. A full faced helmet is as necessary in a stock car as it is in a formula car.

I knew Ironhead fairly well from having worked with him many years ago. He was definetely of the "old school", where the divers thought themselves invincible, and it showed in his lack of interest in equiping himself with the latest in safety equipment.

Nascar driver all sit extermely close to the steering wheel - usually it is only about 10 - 14 inches in front of their chests. In a frontal crash, even a fairly mild one such as what Dale had today, the driver will almost always hit the wheel very hard with both their chest and their face. Because of this, many drivers have taken to wearing a carbon fiber 'breast plate' to lessen the chance of blunt impact trauma to the sternum, and a fll faced helmet to prevent stuffing the wheel thru their nose cavity.Many drivers have finally also started using the HANS Device to prvent neck extension injuries.
NASCAR does not mandate any of these safety items yet, but they really should - there is no excuse for them to not do so, especially now that the death of one of their biggest stars will bring on a glaring spotlight to the stupidity of not using that equipment.

I will miss Dale - he was always good for a laugh in the garages, and a true warrier on the track. But in the end, it was his own stubborness that killed him.
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Old 19 Feb 2001, 04:26 (Ref:65484)   #12
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While one of the trauma suregons assisting in the resus attempts stated that a full faced helmet would not have helped in this case, NASCAR should still make them compulsary.

Obviously NASCAR has a great interest in not seeing their drivers die (for all of the boasting NASCAR fans have made about the safety of their cars, there have been more NASCAR deaths in the last 5 years than there have been in Cart, IRL or F1). So, if NASCAR cares at all about their drivers you would think they would make them mandatory.

Some here have said that it is your choice as to whether you should wear a seatbelt or not. What rubbish! Where I live seatbelts are rightfully mandatory. If one is so stupid as to not buckle up when you get into a car, may I suggest your government (or insurance company in the US) might want to reconsider your medical bills.
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Old 19 Feb 2001, 05:00 (Ref:65485)   #13
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Having checked statistics, there have been more fatalities in NASCAR in the last 10 years than IRL, Cart, and F1 combined. Cart, IRL and F1 are always coming up with new safety innovations that save careers and lives.

Does NASCAR need to take another look at how it's protecting its drivers?
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Old 19 Feb 2001, 06:02 (Ref:65491)   #14
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OMIGOD!! This thread was originally posted on 10th of Feb. This is unbelievable, and ironic. I only have one question: should air bags be fitted to these cars, and would they have prevented Dales tradgic death? PLease , no facetious answers - a simple yes or no will do. I really do not feel in the mood for any jocular replies to this.
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Old 19 Feb 2001, 06:19 (Ref:65494)   #15
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Impossible to give an answer until we hear the coroners report, but I doubt that a bag would have helped.

The problem again lies in the proximity of the driver to the wheel. With so little space available, the bag would have to deploy extremely fast, much faster than in a street car, and that force alone could seriously injure or even kill the driver.

Most steering wheels have a large pad in the center, but I don't believe that there is a mandated material. The wrong choice of material can also be lethal.

Steering columns are also supposed to be collapsable, but again, I don't think that there is a standard as to the force required to facilitate the collapse.

Nascar has a serious problen in the drivers compartment that needs to be addressed NOW.
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Old 19 Feb 2001, 07:15 (Ref:65497)   #16
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Once again Jackie Stewert is right. I don't know enough about NASCAR safety to comment on airbags, but death is becoming far too common at NASCAR events.
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Old 19 Feb 2001, 07:23 (Ref:65498)   #17
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Note: Earnhardt's open faced helmet has absolutely nothing to do with his death. Even the physician said so in the press conference.

Please wait for the coronor's report before jumping to conclusions. Commenting on NASCAR'a safety or lack of so soon after a tragedy of this nature is really in poor taste in my opinion. We have just lost one of the greatest drivers in motorsports history and our emphasis should be in remembering him, reflecting on his career and sharing our sorrow. Not debating safety!
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Old 19 Feb 2001, 08:51 (Ref:65500)   #18
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Joe Fan, I suppose your are right. I must admit I no little about NASCAR (F1 is my fav), so I can't really comment. It is a little hard for a non-NASCAR fan to understand this. An outsider's first impression, after sadness, would be that safety has to be addressed.

Of course, as you said, it is probably better to forget safety for the time being and instead mourn Earnhardt's death.
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Old 19 Feb 2001, 13:24 (Ref:65529)   #19
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Firstly, my condolences to his family and all his fans.

Regarding JS comments, I believe him to one of the geatest drivers alive and many drivers alive today owe that fact to his pursuit of safety.

As a minor racer myself I admire the guts and bravery of yesteryear, I believe that given the choice they'd all have protected themselves with today's kit.

IMHO Open face helmets are more comfortable, especially when the car is stationary, and finding a suitable full-face helmet can take time....
..BUT I would never anythingelse and I race in a tin-top (Grp1 1982 RX7).

Regards
ianc
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Old 19 Feb 2001, 16:33 (Ref:65550)   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jay
Having checked statistics, there have been more fatalities in NASCAR in the last 10 years than IRL, Cart, and F1 combined. Cart, IRL and F1 are always coming up with new safety innovations that save careers and lives.

Does NASCAR need to take another look at how it's protecting its drivers?
Since you are using statistics to make your point, you should also consider the vastly greater number of races, entrants per race, greater distances and total miles run at speed before you imply that NASCAR is less safe than other motorsports.

However, the answer to your question should be "yes". Every form of motorsport should always be looking for ways to improve safety for all participants.
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Old 19 Feb 2001, 17:41 (Ref:65561)   #21
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That's true Neil, but it should not be used an excuse to consider NASCAR the safest form of motorsport, as some other posters have implied.

I just remember a certain poster arguing very hard that open-wheel racing should come to an end after Greg Moore's accident, as he might have survived in a stock car. A year and a half later we see...
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Old 19 Feb 2001, 18:03 (Ref:65564)   #22
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Jay, this isn't the time to start in with safety critcisms or my past viewpoints. Show more decency than that. If you remember, I did whenever Greg Moore and Gonzalo Rodriguez were killed. I am closing this thread for awhile in respect for a legend. Let us hear the autopsy report and bury the guy first before rubbing salt in the wounds.
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Old 19 Feb 2001, 18:11 (Ref:65567)   #23
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It would not have mattered what type of helmut, nor how much of what type of safety equipment he was wearing, in fact, he could have been wearing a full suit of armor and it would not have prevented the death. The angle at which the car struck the wall, almost head-on, at full speed, coming to almost instant stop, was what caused Dale's death. The human body is not designed to withstand this type of impact, and the forces excerted by that impact. Doctors said that he was most likely dead upon impact. Unfortunatly, injury and death are a part, an extreamly unwelcomed, and hated part of motorsports.
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