Porsche withdraws LMP from PLM

[Tom V]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

You dont need to be a DSC subscriber but it does help, see this article for more details on the story. Hope that helps.

Spiteful wanted to know more on the Pacific Coast Motorsport story, not about Porsche withdrawling from PLM.

[SALEEN S7R]

Whoops my bad, should have read closer.

[jhansen]

Well, so far we know that Porsche/Penske has pulled out of Petit Le Mans (possibly Laguna is next) and that the world is coming to an end.

Billnchristy is a profit for GARRA.

And PCM had delusions of grandeur.

[Fogelhund]

I hate to agree on anything with Travis, but the future of the ALMS is strictly up to the ALMS, and has nothing to do with Grand Am.

TomV - Europe has some very popular cheap proto series too don't they?

As far as my take on PCM, they were a championship winning team in Atlantics, wanted to use this season as learning season, and believed that they would have access to a C6.R next season. When they found out they wouldn't, they pulled the plug to save money for whatever they decide to do next season. It might be a Riley DP, or an Aston GT1.

[billnchristy]

Does being a profit for Grand am entitle me to money?

I find it funny that some of you continue to slam Grand am instead of facing reality. If you are a privateer team in America there is only one place for you. Why? Ask the series who don't support you instead of blaming the one that does!!

PCM might buy a DP you say? Well, good for them, they can start competing for wins again.

You may not like Grand Am, their affiliations, the cars, the color of the shoes someone wears or whatever, but to act as if it is treason and mutiny to switch is downright silly.

If you are to keep racing and not look like a joke, there is but one place for you! (in America)

As for me liking NASCAR or whatever, NOPE...never have, never will and I have said numerous times here and other boards that if they start pulling stupid NASCARY stuff I will stop supporting it. However, it is up to me as I make my own choices.

As for NASCAR being a bad thing. I dont think so. I dont like it, dont support it and dont watch it..BUT...They are a NATIONAL series that rivals F1 in fan turnout. NO other national series comes close. Period. Most have their races where 80k + turn out, but nothing short of F1 can compare and they run around in stupid looking cars in circles...it is simply amazing...

I can understand jealosy, but how about giving a little respect for their success.

As for paying teams to be in Grand Am...yeah its called prize money. Do you really think someone wouldnt have blown a whistle if Ganassi and suntrust were getting paid and getting better equipment?

Prove it and I will believe it.

[NJDMONEY]

Originally Posted by tblincoe

It's amazing how some people don't realize how badly the France family is destroying American "sportscar" racing through its control of GARRA and the path that GARRA is currently on...

I hope you enjoy NASCAR racing right now billnchristy as that is what you are going to see more and more of with GARRA; the signs are there, just make sure you pay attention to them. But then again, NASCAR has already sucked the life out of motorsports in the US so maybe I'm just late in accepting the inevitable.

"The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"

At least in Braselton it is.

[TheNewBob]

Is this a Grand-Am/NASCAR argument or a thread about the Porsche widthdrawal...?

[FIRE]

Please can we go on-topic?

[SALEEN S7R]

Exactly, a few members here have taken this thread completly off track IMO, and whilst I know it is inevitable that threads do drift slightly off topic every now and again this one IMO has gone way past that.

[billnchristy]

Not if you listen to everybody that everything that is wrong with the ALMS is Grand Ams fault...then it all makes perfect sense.

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by billnchristy

Does being a profit for Grand am entitle me to money?

I find it funny that some of you continue to slam Grand am instead of facing reality. If you are a privateer team in America there is only one place for you. Why? Ask the series who don't support you instead of blaming the one that does!!

PCM might buy a DP you say? Well, good for them, they can start competing for wins again.

You may not like Grand Am, their affiliations, the cars, the color of the shoes someone wears or whatever, but to act as if it is treason and mutiny to switch is downright silly.

If you are to keep racing and not look like a joke, there is but one place for you! (in America)

As for me liking NASCAR or whatever, NOPE...never have, never will and I have said numerous times here and other boards that if they start pulling stupid NASCARY stuff I will stop supporting it. However, it is up to me as I make my own choices.

As for NASCAR being a bad thing. I dont think so. I dont like it, dont support it and dont watch it..BUT...They are a NATIONAL series that rivals F1 in fan turnout. NO other national series comes close. Period. Most have their races where 80k + turn out, but nothing short of F1 can compare and they run around in stupid looking cars in circles...it is simply amazing...

I can understand jealosy, but how about giving a little respect for their success.

As for paying teams to be in Grand Am...yeah its called prize money. Do you really think someone wouldnt have blown a whistle if Ganassi and suntrust were getting paid and getting better equipment?

Prove it and I will believe it.

I'm not getting into this conversation again, so all I'm gonna say is we'll reconvene this debate in three years and talk again about where GARRA is heading. There are things coming up on the horizon that will make it more clear as apparently its not clear enought now.

[NJDMONEY]

The hatchet jobs ALMS fans put on GARRA are sickening.

The two series' principals have openly admitted they can coexist and are not interested in tearing each other down. Is it too much to ask for the fans to have the same maturty and intelligence?

[tblincoe]

Originally Posted by NJDMONEY

The hatchet jobs ALMS fans put on GARRA are sickening.

The two series' principals have openly admitted they can coexist and are not interested in tearing each other down. Is it too much to ask for the fans to have the same maturty and intelligence?

If you are indeed one of these 'higher intelligence peacemakers' that you speak of, then how was your "The sky is falling" post supposed to direct us towards that aim?

I agree that the two series can and will co-exist, because one series has sportscars and the other has template racers. It's the same difference as the LMES/FIA-GT and a much slower endurance version of DTM.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Tom V

All GARRA's doing is creating rules that allows cheap spec cars being raced under the "sportscar racing" banner. While these cars have nothing to do with sportscar racing.

.

Well that about sums it up for me.

I'll still watch it, just as I watch WTCC, even thought the cars don't get my heart pumping.

The ALMS needs to start producing the goods. They shouldn't be relying on a single Porsche entry to bring in the fans at PLM.

[billnchristy]

Was the current state of ALMS apparent 3 years ago?

If you have these great gifts of perception why aren't working with Ms. Cleo??

I know there is bad news on the horizon nostrodamus, many other things have been percieved the same and turned out just fine..I will wait and see.

I can just see the future too (maybe I am as psychic as you?) IF the series does become a joke in my eyes people like you are going to say I told you so, even though us level headed ones said we would just give up on it the moment it started sucking.

Again, you know so much, but you just cant say...sound like someone else...

[Fogelhund]

Bill, are you going to Mosport this weekend?

[awegrzyn]

Jag,

You're for sure not the only one. I typed a sentence or two here regarding the state of ALMS. Right a way ALMS staff send me few emails to my personal email box regarding my opinions. I have been a true fan of ALMS way before those "pumpers" started working for the series, so I have a right to express my opinions here in the way I desire. Anyway, you're correct they need to do something, and for the start this is what they have to do:

Stop pumping the series with fake positive information. This leads to financial losses by investors. Instead show us positive facts, for example: new entries, larger grids, factory commitment. I'm tired of hearing "The series is growing" for 7 years now. Tired of hearing "if I only could tell you who is coming next year" and things along these lines. The fact is that no one is coming and the series is not growing, the teams are leaving and the series is going South.

Do not get me wrong I love ALMS for it's type of racing and cars. It is my favorite series. I go every year to see the races even if I have to drive 10 hours to see a race. The problem sits at the base of the equation. If we like it or not, we are tied to the ACO.
We are trying to make everybody happy, be able to comply with "Le Mans" regulations and still keep maximum number of cars running. There are regulation changes every year. Where ever there are changes, there are costs. Sports car racing at that level is very expensive when you compare the costs to the returns that you get from few people following this kind of racing. It's by no means moneyland.

I admire current teams that managed to hang on till now. They are very successful and should be able to hang on longer. Not everything is negative. ALMS TV coverage is great. Cars are beautiful and the random chicks at random events catch up for the lack of cars.

I wish them best, but they need help no doubt.

Andrzej

[NJDMONEY]

Originally Posted by tblincoe

If you are indeed one of these 'higher intelligence peacemakers' that you speak of, then how was your "The sky is falling" post supposed to direct us towards that aim?

It was a reminder that, as someone pointed out earlier in this thread, the France family didn't tell Don Panoz to tie his dinghy to the ACO cruise liner, have the ACO form LMES and allow the ACO to open the rules to outlandish costs that U.S. sports car teams cannot afford.

The ALMS has pinned their future on so many "possibilities" and every single possibility has failed to materialize. You can only "wait for next year" so many years.

[billnchristy]

No, I am in Georgia now, no longer in NY and unfortunately I never did get to mosport. I would have loved to seen it. I am pretty happy with the number of races I was able to see up there in 3 years though. 2 ALMS, 4 Grand Am, 4 SCCA, 1 T/A and one Historic.

I might go to petit...if not for the weekend, at least raceday.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by NJDMONEY

The hatchet jobs ALMS fans put on GARRA are sickening.

The two series' principals have openly admitted they can coexist and are not interested in tearing each other down. Is it too much to ask for the fans to have the same maturty and intelligence?

It's simple. On the face it appears as though the emergence of GARRA has threatened the ALMS. So, it's been easy to blame GARRA, and dislike them for this reason.

Frankly, I dislike them because I don't like the way they look, amongst a few other reasons. We can all have our reasons.

The other thing that bothers some people is that some GARRA supporters feel the need to jump all over the ALMS, any chance they can. Usually their reasoning is equally as faulty as the ALMS fans blaming GARRA.

It is true though, that the future of either series at this point has nothing to do with anything the other series does... well. If one series blows up, surely the other would benefit. Additionally, if there were just one series....

[NJDMONEY]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Frankly, I dislike them because I don't like the way they look, amongst a few other reasons. We can all have our reasons.

It's pretty sad to dislike a series that provides great racing and great grids simply because they "don't look good." You're missing out.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

The other thing that bothers some people is that some GARRA supporters feel the need to jump all over the ALMS, any chance they can. Usually their reasoning is equally as faulty as the ALMS fans blaming GARRA.

Strange I see it the other way around. Take a look at the ALMS board vs. the GARRA board. ALMS board? Every GA race there's a thread slamming GARRA. GARRA board? Nary an ALMS mention except when an ALMS team is rumored to be jumping ship, which seems to be happening more often these days.

How many teams has GARRA actually poached from ALMS up until now? Ganassi, Suntrust, Crawford, Brumos and more weren't running ALMS. The only one I can think of is TRG. But ALMS nor their fans don't need TRG, right? He's the traitor that won a cheap Rolex 24. I bet ALMS would like to have their 2 Protos and and 2 GT cars.

[kbeech]

Strange I see it the other way around. Take a look at the ALMS board vs. the GARRA board. ALMS board? Every GA race there's a thread slamming GARRA. GARRA board? Nary an ALMS mention except when an ALMS team is rumored to be jumping ship, which seems to be happening more often these days.




Right, the GARRA board, pure as the driven show.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by NJDMONEY

It's pretty sad to dislike a series that provides great racing and great grids simply because they "don't look good." You're missing out.

I believe I stated that I don't like their looks, amongst a few other things. That is more than simply because.....

You feel I'm missing out, and that's fine. I've watched quite a few of the races, and usually walk away. That is my perogative, as much as it is others to not like NASCAR, IRL... or whatever they like or don't. We all have different tastes.

Strange I see it the other way around. Take a look at the ALMS board vs. the GARRA board. ALMS board? Every GA race there's a thread slamming GARRA. GARRA board? Nary an ALMS mention except when an ALMS team is rumored to be jumping ship, which seems to be happening more often these days.

Try the Speed TV board. Actually, there have been instances where GARRA fans, and members of the COG board purposefully went the ALMS forum to flame. While I agree with you that there is far too much mention of GARRA, it does go both ways.

How many teams has GARRA actually poached from ALMS up until now? Ganassi, Suntrust, Crawford, Brumos and more weren't running ALMS. The only one I can think of is TRG. But ALMS nor their fans don't need TRG, right? He's the traitor that won a cheap Rolex 24. I bet ALMS would like to have their 2 Protos and and 2 GT cars.

Hey look, I tried to explain why many ALMS fans have thought that way. I didn't suggest I thought that way, so there isn't much point in trying to argue with me about it. I'm aware of who is in GARRA, and which of these entries used to be (or were going to be) in the ALMS. It's quite a few more than just TRG.

1. Wayne Taylor's team ran ALMS, not with Sun Trust sponsorship.
2. Tracy Krohn's team ran ALMS.
3. Doran ran ALMS
4. PTG
5. AASCO
6. Southard
7. Speedquest should have been in ALMS.. botched deal.

there are more team owners, but I'll stop there.

I know why specifically most of these teams are in GARRA, and not ALMS. I know it has nothing to do with poaching. In some cases the team is just a better fit for GARRA. In some cases it is the ALMS's loss that the team is no longer involved. In some cases it looks as though these teams are likely to become involved in the ALMS in the near future.

I think your original premise was simply that in a discussion of what is wrong with ALMS, there is no need for discussion on GARRA.... unless one wants to objectively learn from what they have done correctly, and how that could apply to the ALMS formula.

I admire what they have built, and recognize their success. If you go back in time, I often posted on the GrandAm board. Many people were very critical of the six cars they had at the time... I was one of the few who cautioned that you really needed to wait for the third year to see what entries were like before declaring it a success or not. But, it doesn't mean I like the product, and I also stated that.

I do find it amusing when there are threads on the GA board where certain employees of Daytona post using multiple nicks, praising themself for their good points.

Anyway... what does this all have to do with Porsche withdrawing from PLM? Oh, I don't think we'll see them until Sebring. Perhaps we'll see some of you down there then.

[NJDMONEY]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I do find it amusing when there are threads on the GA board where certain employees of Daytona post using multiple nicks, praising themself for their good points.

Said the moderator of the ALMS board from his third rate ALMS Fan sources.

Now I remember why I don't post here.

[tblincoe]

This is absolutely ridiculous... are there moderators in these forums?

And as for you Andrzej, I emailed you (I am in no way affiliated with the ALMS) asking about the "insider information" you claimed to have regarding the imminent demise of the ALMS which in the end you did not have. I didn't write you for the claims you posted here and my email to you was anything but hostile. If you continue to claim so I will post my message to you here on the boards.

billnchristy and NJDMONEY, when are you guys going to put your collective egos aside and approach a topic and not a person? You especially NJDMONEY are particularly out of line with your last comments in which Fogelhund did nothing to ellicit such a response from you. You probably don't post in this forum because you can't have civil discussions without making things personal.

As for the "what I know and can't tell" argument billnchristy, thats a load of BS. I said I didn't want to get into it because its like beating a dead horse. Having said that, I recently had a very interesting series of contacts with someone I consider to be a well informed individual in the racing community and I think the writing on the wall is clear to see. Want me to spell it out for you? Have you noticed the pipeline that has formed for sponsors and manufacturers from Grand-Am into NASCAR? No? Look harder. How about the past (and future) special one-off Daytona drives for NASCAR stars? Or how about more NASCAR teams joining Ganassi in fielding GARRA entries? Or how about when the standard GARRA engine becomes the base-line Cup motor? Understand now? I know you will have some sort of personally-aimed response to this, but do take time to think through what is going on in Grand-Am right now and where the series is headed.